Framework of the Future

ThumberOne

Member
Joined
May 7, 2020
Messages
266
@Inquisitor - Forgive me for not being able to answer your questions at the moment, but politics is a very sensitive subject for me, and political viewpoints from the leftist side drives me crazy, especially when I have OCD. That's why I don't trust Google when I do a search for answers that I find more objective. Whenever I search Google on those topics, I get flooded with stories from news outlets I strongly disagree with.

And while I don't know too much about the site you brought up, I assume that it's somewhat obvious that the author of that article, Tod Perry, has a bias to the left, as he cites from heavily left-leaning sources such as CNN.
@Classicalfan626 on the plus side you have either a choice or a command:

you can ignore me

Nobody will ever agree on everything, but we cannot just ignore or attack what contradicts our opinions.
 

ThumberOne

Member
Joined
May 7, 2020
Messages
266
Well thats going to be your problem to deal with and coming to November there will be no escape. So dont blame us for discussing here.
Definitely agree.

On an semirelated note, awkward thanksgivings due to those sort of discussions on the dinner table.
On an unrelated note, for some reason the last post of a page on a thread usually gets overlooked.
 

HeraldOfTruth

Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2020
Messages
247
@Blix1ms0ns

You took what I said out of context, what a surprise. Plus, we already tried understanding, but you can’t do that, so here we are. Instead of picking pieces of what I’ve said and acting like they are related, you can join the discussion properly at any time.
 

ThumberOne

Member
Joined
May 7, 2020
Messages
266
@Blix1ms0ns

You took what I said out of context, what a surprise. Plus, we already tried understanding, but you can’t do that, so here we are. Instead of picking pieces of what I’ve said and acting like they are related, you can join the discussion properly at any time.
@HeraldOfTruth I wasn't speaking to you about that. The abridgement is for the benefit of the other readers. Sometimes the quotes get collapsed and you have to click to see them. I'll include the context with the quote feature and let it copy as much as it can along with my highlights. Even with context there are some generalizations that might be problematic.

If any of you are colorblind let me know and I will accomodate you.


You don’t seem to understand that my message was getting dismissed either way. So really, it doesn’t matter if you support my actions or not and I’ve said it before. Again, you can get caught up on what I did, or you can ignore me and move on. But we are here to have a productive discussion about what is best for the future. Please do that, or this is the only reply you will get from me.
I agree. Politics is never an easy subject to discuss, to be fair.

Perhaps. This thread will hopefully clarify the truth for everyone involved.

I am eager to understand why you believe that. The stats are there declining prior to Trump, so what leads you to that belief?

I am glad that if nothing else, we can agree to disagree. Nobody will ever agree on everything, but we cannot just ignore or attack what contradicts our opinions. Even if we do not agree, we must understand. It is inevitable, and something that should be encouraged. There can be no peace without understanding and the concept of “agree to disagree”.
 
Last edited:

Yeats

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2020
Messages
110
@Classicalfan626 @TimeFlipper
This is where I got the list, it was a quick search and I picked the largest list I saw.
28 Of Barack Obama’s Greatest Achievements As President Of The United States

My thoughts on this are not very easy to explain, but allow me to ask a few questions to make sure I'm not misunderstanding anything.

1. Could you perhaps list which of the things I noted were false, skewed, speculation, or true?

2. You say information is easy to skew online like how some stats are skewed in favor of Obama where you say it wasn't the case at all. How then can you be sure the same is not true for your sources of information?

3. If Biden were to be elected or Trump to be elected, large numbers of people on either side will say it was rigged in favor of whoever won the election. You are certain it is his only way of winning, and seem to genuinely hate the man. Why do you hate or dislike him? If he does win, what do you think will happen? If he does win, what would you yourselves do?

4. What is your opinion of Kamala Harris? The smear campaigns between each party are obvious, but what do you think about her?

5. One of the common retorts to people who dislike the current President of the time, is to "just leave if you don't like it". How do you feel about such statements? On the same topic, how do you feel about immigration?

I have some other questions, but I am still working some things out myself.
I know that your questions were not directed at me but if you don't mind I would like to attempt a response to them.

Your first question was rather puzzling to me at first until I realized that it was asked in order to prolong the debate and not resolve it. If I believed that correcting your errors would cause you to rethink your position and concede your mistakes then a list of those errors would be worthwhile. Based on a review of your other posts here, I tend to doubt that there is a willingness on your part to do so, thus such a list would only produce a rebuttal instead of a re-evaluation on your part. Although I am not a Christian, I do agree with advice given in First Corinthians 14:38 as far as this question is concerned.

Your second question is very simple to answer. One can determine the accuracy of one's sources based upon how closely they conform with reality. For example, one person may believe that the recent riots were nothing more than peaceful protests while another may be aware that the riots have resulted in the deaths of at least 30 people, the injury of hundreds if not thousands of others, and property damage currently estimated in the tens of billions. The latter view conforms with reality while the former view does not, regardless of what the so-called mainstream media has reported.

I agree with the premise of your third question in that, when Mr. Trump is re-elected, those opposing him will not accept the results. This is obvious, considering the fact that those same people have not yet accepted the results of the 2016 election. I would point out that conservatives in 2008 were opposed to Mr. Obama's election, but did not dispute the results. The same would most likely hold true in the unlikely event that Mr. Biden is elected.

Your fourth question deals with Ms. Harris. I suggest that you carefully examine her record as District Attorney in San Francisco and as Attorney General of California. I assume that you would oppose jailing parents for their children's truancy or keeping inmates incarcerated in order to provide cheap labor. Ms. Harris had no such qualms about doing so, and in fact did so. These are not smears. They are historical facts that even many on the Left have acknowledged and are disgusted by.

The first part of your last question is really nothing more than a straw man argument. I doubt that a negative reaction to Mr. Trump would cause any thinking conservative to utter the phrase which you claim is "common". In fact, I recall that many of the celebrity class vowed that they would leave the country if Mr. Trump were elected back in 2016. So much for that.

In the second part of the question you ask about immigration. I believe that most conservatives favor legal immigration since it has been one of the great strengths of this nation. It is illegal immigration that we oppose, in the same way that you would welcome those who enter your home through the front door after being invited in and oppose those who attempt to break into your home through the back window.

I apologize for the length of this response. I normally don't ramble on like this, but I felt that your questions deserved a complete answer.
 

Yeats

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2020
Messages
110
I must apologize for a grievous error. In my previous post I stated that my review of Inquisitor's posts led me to believe that he was not the kind of person who would be willing to change his opinions. Even though I was responding to his post, I later realized that I was confusing him with another poster. My review of Inquisitor's posts has not found an unwillingness to change, but rather someone who seems to be open-minded and willing to change.

My deepest apologies to Inquisitor for my error.
 
Last edited:

Inquisitor

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2020
Messages
41
I know that your questions were not directed at me but if you don't mind I would like to attempt a response to them.

Your first question was rather puzzling to me at first until I realized that it was asked in order to prolong the debate and not resolve it. If I believed that correcting your errors would cause you to rethink your position and concede your mistakes then a list of those errors would be worthwhile. Based on a review of your other posts here, I tend to doubt that there is a willingness on your part to do so, thus such a list would only produce a rebuttal instead of a re-evaluation on your part. Although I am not a Christian, I do agree with advice given in First Corinthians 14:38 as far as this question is concerned.

Your second question is very simple to answer. One can determine the accuracy of one's sources based upon how closely they conform with reality. For example, one person may believe that the recent riots were nothing more than peaceful protests while another may be aware that the riots have resulted in the deaths of at least 30 people, the injury of hundreds if not thousands of others, and property damage currently estimated in the tens of billions. The latter view conforms with reality while the former view does not, regardless of what the so-called mainstream media has reported.

I agree with the premise of your third question in that, when Mr. Trump is re-elected, those opposing him will not accept the results. This is obvious, considering the fact that those same people have not yet accepted the results of the 2016 election. I would point out that conservatives in 2008 were opposed to Mr. Obama's election, but did not dispute the results. The same would most likely hold true in the unlikely event that Mr. Biden is elected.

Your fourth question deals with Ms. Harris. I suggest that you carefully examine her record as District Attorney in San Francisco and as Attorney General of California. I assume that you would oppose jailing parents for their children's truancy or keeping inmates incarcerated in order to provide cheap labor. Ms. Harris had no such qualms about doing so, and in fact did so. These are not smears. They are historical facts that even many on the Left have acknowledged and are disgusted by.

The first part of your last question is really nothing more than a straw man argument. I doubt that a negative reaction to Mr. Trump would cause any thinking conservative to utter the phrase which you claim is "common". In fact, I recall that many of the celebrity class vowed that they would leave the country if Mr. Trump were elected back in 2016. So much for that.

In the second part of the question you ask about immigration. I believe that most conservatives favor legal immigration since it has been one of the great strengths of this nation. It is illegal immigration that we oppose, in the same way that you would welcome those who enter your home through the front door after being invited in and oppose those who attempt to break into your home through the back window.

I apologize for the length of this response. I normally don't ramble on like this, but I felt that your questions deserved a complete answer.
I must apologize for a grievous error. In my previous post I stated that my review of Inquisitor's posts led me to believe that he was not the kind of person who would be willing to change his opinions. Even though I was responding to his post, I discovered I was confusing him with another poster. My review of Inquisitor's posts have not found an unwillingness to change, but rather the opposite.

My deepest apologies to Inquisitor for my error.
I was very confused until I saw this. It's no problem really. I did however desire a real answer to that, since @Classicalfan626 had said "That list appears to me to be a mixture of fiction, speculation, opinion, with a few facts thrown in between." It's hard to know what the truth is if it's skewed, or nobody wants to discuss the topics. I was actually raised Catholic, but my family didn't even really practice what they preached so it didn't stick. I'm not sure what I believe now. I don't really worry about it. I just live my life the best I can.

That is true, but not all news is easily verifiable. However, as far as the protests go, the movement itself is peaceful, even if some involved are not. But that is true for any group of people anywhere, every side has bad apples. On top of that, some if it IS sabotage from far-right supporters who want to smear the name of the movement with violence. Rioters and looters are not protestors, but the protesters, the ones who just want real change and are desperate to make changes that will save lives, those people are getting caught in the crossfire. They are not the problem. Once the rioters start something, the police start going after pretty much everyone. I used to watch the Ferguson protests on livestreams every night after school. I saw who started what, and where the negative sentiment was. I watched "Officer Go Fuck Yourself" live, along with a lot of what really happened there. I've even recently seen videos of police closing off protesters on their way home before curfew, lining up on streets in a whole block to keep them boxed in so they can have an excuse "after curfew" to do something. I am not speaking against police in general. I myself wanted to be an officer or perhaps join the military when I was young, but I never really had the build. I'm a skinny little thing. Most of them are just following their orders and doing their jobs... some bad apples abuse they power they have, and sometimes that is a reason to change the system. I find it hard to imagine a world without police, though. I imagine it would not be a quick transition, if they ever figured out a trustworthy replacement.

I think they will handle it. What leans me a bit left on some things is that we all know democracy is not the final product of civilization. Yeah, perfect is not expected, but you can still improve what you have, and learn from those that came before you as well as those that are succeeding around you. Unfortunately history seems to bore a lot of people, but it's there so that we don't repeat the same mistakes. It's one thing for you to say nobody will claim that if Biden if he were to win, but some people already say that, and it's not even decided yet.

Kamala Harris has made some notable mistakes, yes. But so has just about every politician out there. She has not fully answered for them, but I suspect she will be doing so before the election is up or it will hang over her until the end.

It is common enough to have been recorded and uploaded to social media a few times, though I do not have the reddit links for them unfortunately. A handful here seem to have the same attitude, but they know who they are.

What happens when the current system wasn't designed for the number of people who are coming, many of them refugees? They just want to put food on the table for their families, and sure, some may be bad apples. But again, every place has them. Reforming the system is completely reasonable. Sure they are filling jobs, but there are plenty more. The more of them that come, the more businesses can also expand as well because they are not all just valuable workers, there are scholars, doctors, scientists, entrepreneurs, lots of helpful people in all backgrounds. Some may not have arrived legally because they were avoiding the flawed system because they had nowhere else to go but forward.

Can you imagine being in their position if some massive shift in your perspective convinced you that you had better opportunities elsewhere, or have been forced to flee your home because it was too dangerous? When you get there, all of the sudden you have a long waiting period, all kinds of obstacles and red tape, and then comes all the hate from people around them, many of them silent, but some, the really bad apples act, and the hate is growing because of statements made by Trump. Recently, he has incited a lot of anti-Asian sentiment with his comments like "China Virus", and others. Whether he claims not to be a supporter of those actions, he loves to keep saying things that incite hate. He has a documented past of being racist as well. Do you dispute that?

No worries, long answers don't bother me. All I want is to get a clear understanding of the current political climate.
 

Yeats

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2020
Messages
110
I was going to answer your recent post in full but have decided that I will spare you and the others here of another long-winded response. There are a few of your points I would like to address however. I will try to be brief.

You say that the movement is peaceful even if some involved are not. If I were to say that we should not condemn the Nazi movement in Germany because only a small percentage of Nazis were responsible for the Holocaust, then you would think me a madman and rightly so. Also, I remind you that any protester who remains at the scene when a riot breaks out is, simply by his or her presence, aiding and abetting a crime.

I agree that democracy is not the final product of civilization. However, the USA is not a democracy and never was. We are a constitutional republic. There is a very great difference between the two.

Your statement about Ms. Harris is known as "whataboutism". (Sure, X is bad but what about Y and Z?) I am sure you will agree that the sins of others have no bearing upon Ms. Harris's misdeeds.

When I stated that the phrase you mentioned was not common, I did not mean to imply that it had never been uttered. I only said that the phrase is not one that any thinking conservative would make. The political left is not the only place wherein idiots reside. We have some as well.

I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree concerning illegal immigration. I believe that sneaking into a country is not only wrong, but is also a slap in the face to all immigrants who went through the process of legal entry.

As to Mr. Trump's racism, I can only paraphrase Forrest Gump and say that "racist is as racist does". I doubt you can point to any policy of the Trump administration which is racist, while I can cite many areas in which minorities have been greatly helped by those policies.

As for the "China virus", it is precisely that. It is where the virus originated. From the Plague of Athens in 429 BC to the London Plague of 1637 to the Spanish Flu of 1918 there have been many pandemics which have borne the name of the place where they originated. There is nothing racist about this at all.

I have promised to be brief and have failed miserably. My apologies.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 1, 2016
Messages
392
As promised, I am still here. I am glad to see some people have understood and even appreciated my experiment, even if others have chosen to ignore the numerous positive things I discussed.
It does not matter how much people appreciate something. Moral should be independent from the opinion of other people. So you still think it was a good behaviour?

For those who still think that, I will tell you that I originally attempted to discuss my theories, particularly my political ones, and was banned on another forum that is partially moderated by people who are mods here and some of my posts deleted. Unfortunately claiming to be from the future was the only way for people to actually listen.
There are a couple of political discussion boards out there. If nobody wants to discuss anything with you, usually you are the problem. That I say independent of our past. This forum and the other one are time travel forums. They dont like people like you, because you are not the only one with such a "good" idea . They have also different moderators. That is not correct either.

I will not be arguing the validity of my actions here, if you truly cannot understand why I did what I did and want to, I am always open to messages.
Do I hear regret out of this? That would be a start.

This is where I would like to discuss real science and culture and politics, without prejudice or hostility, and in the hopes of using what we discuss to create a better future. Not only my ideas, but the ideas of everyone here and around the world are the foundation of progress.
You are responsible for the hostility. What do you expect? You particularly mentioned me. Why should I ever trust you? You did not even apologize.
 

Top