Debate John Titor: Real Time Traveler or a Hoaxer?

[Passive_Extremist]

Re: John Titor Update: Exclusive Report!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Goodwin\")</div>

\"Yes, but by the rules of his story, it's explainable.\"
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This then is the crux of the matter. And explains the polarizing effect the Titor story has on people.
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What we have here is that someone has cleverly set up a Moebius loop of logic. All problems with 'Titor's' story are
explainable.
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According to 'Titor' everything he says in terms of prediction is 'true' in his universe, but even when by the rules of our universe they prove 'false' they still (because he controls the rules) are deemed to be 'true.'
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The question then is not one of proving the story 'false' as this cannot be done with the usual systems of logic. It is not in fact anything to do with reason at all. It is a question of faith. What do you believe?
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So...you can either sit on the fence and say that your belief is that you are 'open minded' enough to consider that 'Titor' arrived here in the year 2000 in a time-travelling Chevrolet...that this may be 'true'...in other words accept his dictating the rules of the game as being perfectly fine.
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Or: Take a side...find them so acceptable that you believe him to the point where you buy your \"Titor was here\" mug and T-shirt and start tooling up for the coming bloodshed.
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Or: Take the other side...be skeptical enough in your beliefs to file it alongside 'Elvis Presley was a Martian' and the like (all very sensational but with no real substance whatsoever) on the basis that a similarly strong and cast-iron case can be made for that, or any number of other national enquirer stories, of infinite ridiculousness, too if you really put your mind to it. Nobody would ever be able to prove them ultimately 'false.'
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All that remains then is to take your side and argue your case. And you're right about one thing - it is perhaps futile and pointless to argue against something you believe to be inherantly stupid. But I think the reason I do is because if some internet nut whose condemned my children to death actually develops a following, it becomes something altogether more sinister.
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You sit on the fence if you like, all the way up to 2050 if need be. I think you'll find the problem with believing 'false' is 'true' and black is white is that it gets a bit confusing when asking someone how they like their coffee. [/b]

Well, until you can actually debunk anything he's said , I won't be taking your side..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"shane\")</div>

I predicted that as well, as anyone halfway aware of the global situation beyond the sensationalist media hype should have been able to. Iraq barely had the budget to keep a military around.[/b]

I'd really love to hear how you predicted that happening before 9/11....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"shane\")</div>

\"Hey, guys, I just flew in from the future, and as it turns out, two and two make four.\"

\"Wow! You're amazing!\"

\"Give me money.\"

\"Sure!\"

edit: I decided that I had to point out the following statements.



Here you state that it would be difficult for someone to alter the body of information regarding Titor, going so far as to imply that difficulty as an impossibility. The information supports your claim, so you hold it up as fact with no logical basis for doing so.



Here, in the same post, you imply that information regarding Titor could have been altered. This information disputes your beliefs, so you attempt to debunk its credibility through use of the same argument used to the opposite end previously.[/b]

That was a bit of sarcasm on my part, to that persons claims that the WMD prediction had been added afterwards, when he had no proof of it..I thought that was pretty clear..


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"shane\")</div>

Personally, I stand aside from this argument. I am not concerned by the question of John Titor being a time traveler or a hoaxer. However, I see many people in this argument not thinking, and that concerns me greatly.[/b]

Why don't you educate us, then.

 

[sinister]

Re: John Titor Update: Exclusive Report!

you can pick at the story or discuss message board hoaxes in general all you want, but I think a lot of us are forgetting how old the Titor predictions are. The fact that they have still hung solid to this day should tell you something. Ya, he predicted all of this before 9/11, and everything is pretty much heading in the direction he was going. Mad Cow's Disease, no WMDs in Iraq, arguable Waco-like events, major earthquakes and natural disasters, seperatism in our government, loss of civil rights...I mean the list goes on.
Also, this is not a thread concerning the general believability of things and how bulletin board psychology works. This is a thread discussing evidence in the John Titor case, so why has the topic veered so dramatically?
If you want to speak in generalities, fine, let's do that. Generally, we are heading in the exact direction Titor has placed us at. With all that's gone on in the last few years, I'd say that's a pretty staggering concept. More generalities? Fine, generally, the ideas Titor brought up are the major topics and worries of us all today: namely the war on terrorism, and the loss of American civil rights. I mean just go look at CNN.com, and imagine you were a young kid in America right now. What topics would be huge and important to you right now? What you get is Mad Cow's, tsunami relief, and authority abusing its heavy amount of power.

 

[virtualgirl]

Re: John Titor Update: Exclusive Report!

Sinister,

I think I have to agree with you. It is heading in that direction, and quite frankly, it puts me in awe. You hear of time travellers all the time on the forums but I've never really bought into it. Now, it's becoming increasingly hard to avoid it. And then there is our future. If everything he's says is true, what kind of future is for our children? And are we going to be forced to kill to protect our families? Even the thought makes me sick.

I think it might be time to start a new thread for a survival list to help people that don't have the knowledge. I told Heggy I would start one but because I'm in the middle of writing a book on the subject, I've been hesitant. I don't want anyone to feel my material came from the thread. I have most of the research done. I'm sorting and writing now. Anyway, let me know what you guys think. I have alot of information to add to it.

VG

 

[Keroscene]

Re: John Titor Update: Exclusive Report!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Passive_Extremist\")</div>

Hey if you're so arrogant about your accusations, why don't you debunk JT's no WMD Iraq war prediction?[/b]

I apologize if I sound arrogant, I try to explain myself with as few words as possible and to avoid any confusion. I didn't know I sounded arrogant and do not intend on offending anyone, but seems difficult not to because of other obvious emotional attachments.

I can offer my opinion on the WMD Iraq war prediction. Please don't think I'm trying to debunk it though, it is only my opinion, and wouldn't have bothered to share it unless asked to do so. Everything I say from here is from memory and I don't care to do a ton of research to support my opinion in regards to someones (JT) statement. I don't remember the Gulf War very well (I was 11), but thought that Iraqs WMD program was terminated either during or shortly after. I don't know either how long Iraq was giving the UN inspectors problems on letting them see everything they wanted but am sure it was longer than the time span of leading up to the current war when it recieved mass coverage. Saddam was up to no good regardless of WMD, and with a prior track record of WMD and rattling UN Inspectors nerves was asking for something to happen.(Which you wouldn't have been able to tell from the Dan Rather Interview-). I don't want to type about oil alot either but we use alot of it, so would think if were gonna be getting alot of it from someone, better get along with them, or shut them down and take over the buisness yourself. So now I have a pretty good reason for war would you think? We make money with oil, army, and aid and at the same time decrease the chances of someone putting a nuke in an oil tanker. So if I am JT, I have all this info available, with the exception of the Dan Rather Interview, and can easily predict a war or WMD statement based on already obvious facts. All we needed was an emotional motivator like 9/11 to set it off. At least then were attacking our stereotypical view of a terrosist to feel revenge, and making money too.

Another thing that bothers me is I can't seem to find the date that JT made this actual post. His posts however were right around when Bush first entered office and with Bushs fathers beef with Saddam seemed good reason for a war. With this countrys fixed media coverage on Clintons sexual escapades is good reason why other important global events which were less entertaining could have been overlooked.

I don't know how much of that is correct and didn't reread JT's actual statement about the war or WMD as I was trying to respond to the post were I was called arrogant and trying to give a reason for making a pre9/11 prediction plausible. Personally, I always felt war with Iraq was inevitable, and could predict others now with other countrys, but without being a really cool dude like a TT to make people like me, aren't really predictions but just someones ideas based on current events.

 

[Goodwin]

Re: John Titor Update: Exclusive Report!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Lagnar\")</div>

To believe in anything except utter truth or proven fact to the point that you are willing to fight or erroneously argue for said belief is utter lunacy and waste of time...simple insecure machismo or ego. To try to force one's opinion after clearly stating it is nothing save the behavior of the bumblebee at the picnic (minor irritation).

It couldn't be simpler...

...Present your subjective opinion. Present your subjective idea. Present ANY(!) objective research you've actually done. Present the objective truth...or present NOTHING and PAY ATTENTION to what others present, for mindless arguing (in the loosest sense of the word) presents nothing but your lack of intellect.
[/b]

Christ, Lagnar...what a crock.

Everything in that rant of yours is contradictory and hypocritical. Don't make out that its the intellectual high ground to remain neutral and sit on the fence. Fence-sitting is in itself a reasonable position, I grant you, but this is a war of ideas and all that makes you is the equivalent of Switzerland...nice and safe in your reluctance to take a stance that might require real defending. The idealogical equivalent of a cuckoo clock manafacturer.

If you're going to present your position as intellectually superior, you're no better than the people your sniping at - your whole post is an own-goal. So why don't don't you follow your own vapid advice and present NOTHING. Because that's what your back to front argument amounts to.

 

[Passive_Extremist]

Re: John Titor Update: Exclusive Report!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Goodwin\")</div>

Christ, Lagnar...what a crock.
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Everything in that rant of yours is contradictory and hypocritical. Don't make out that its the intellectual high ground to remain neutral and sit on the fence. Fence-sitting is in itself a reasonable position, I grant you, but this is a war of ideas and all that makes you is the equivalent of Switzerland...nice and safe in your reluctance to take a stance that might require real defending. The idealogical equivalent of a cuckoo clock manafacturer.
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If you're going to present your position as intellectually superior, you're no better than the people your sniping at - your whole post is an own-goal. So why don't don't you follow your own vapid advice and present NOTHING. Because that's what your back to front argument amounts to.[/b]

You're kind of one of those with us or with the terraists types aren't you?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Goodwin\")</div>

\"Yes, but by the rules of his story, it's explainable.\"
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[/b]

So which one is it? His story is logical or it's filled with plot holes?

 

[shane]

Re: John Titor Update: Exclusive Report!

I'd really love to hear how you predicted that happening before 9/11....

Our actions in the middle east began in the 80's. I'm not going to get into trade sanctions, US military bases in Isreal, support of Isreal in their acts against palestine in order to maintain those bases, US military training of Jihadists during the cold war, etc in this thread, however. I'm fairly certain Noam Chomsky predicted a lot of this, and he isn't claiming to be a time traveler.

I could tell you about the upcoming actions to gain control of the Saudi oil supply even as we gravitate toward alternitave energy, all the while using our own supply of oil and the Saudi's to hold the growing third world by their throats. I could tell you about the corporate outsourcing to those third world countries, then reliant on our oil, about slave labor in the typical fashion of imperialism. Would that make me a time traveler? I certainly hope not. You don't need a time machine to be aware and think for yourself.

As for your request that I educate you, Passive Extremist, I don't see how that would help you to form your own thoughts based in logic.

I knew that I lived in an imperialist police state wearing the guise of a dead republic before Titor ever made a post. I knew then, even as I know now, that past empires have proven that path to be a short one. Maybe Titor isn't really from the future, but used a time machine to go back to the Roman empire and witness its demise. Maybe, though, just maybe, he read about it like the rest of us.

Regardless of Titor's so called predictions, I can see the end of the world coming. The end of the world is always coming when your "world" is such a small and sheltered thing to be reliant on transient governments and luxuries. Let it come, I say. You won't find me crying in a bomb shelter.

 

[Lagnar]

Re: John Titor Update: Exclusive Report!

Goodwin - Don't make out that its the intellectual high ground to remain neutral and sit on the fence.

What is the matter with you Goodwin? Have you never taken an English course in which writing arguments was the focus (Causal, Definitional, Categorical, Evaluation, Proposal, etc...)? Did you never learn that name-calling and singling out is no way to convince anyone of anything? Did you never learn that only the worst arguments use hostility as their base, thus convincing no one of anything save your own hostility? Am I above this type of behavior? I would like to believe that Ms. Buck taught me well, but of course I'm not especially when "I" feel threatened. But honestly, what do you think is the only thing most people take with them after they read your posts?

Indeed, hostility is a limbic product of neanderthalic (real word?) animal instinct, and not worth arguing with at all, yet for some reason I was prompted to write today (maybe I'm just in an unusually good mood today or sompm...LOL).

What's the matter Goodwin, you don't believe fighting for the truth and ONLY the utter truth is grounds for intellectual superiority? Am I really wrong in that belief? Has this forum become so engulfed in it's own so-called "WAR" (your word) of partial information, inuendo, and finger-pointing that everyone is completely content to fight for something they have no grounds to believe in except what is programmed by and professed by our main-stream sheppards?

As I expected, you didn't understand most of what I wrote, thus the EXPLANATION AT THE END OF THE POST.

My stance is only the belief in the truth and a belief in the truth ONLY. In other words...I will NOT believe whole-heartedly in anything until I know the unfeigned TRUTH, or in other words (commonly used words to explain again in a different manner) have enough evidence that I'm willing to make a fool of myself for either side with absolute loyalty. I WILL NOT fight or argue for either side because it simply produces NO RESULT save the possibility of seeming an idiot when the truth comes out being different from what you professed. Do you have a problem with that ideal? It wouldn't surprise me, and yet I know you not, but the more you post, the more we know...don't we?

Wow! I can't believe I put so much effort into this (miniscule really, but quite substanced for the complacent fence-sitter I apparently am).

What an unworthwhile post...sorry everyone. I feel violated...

Back to my "fence" I go (with my telescope and writing pad). blah blah blah...

 

[LetThereBeLight!]

Re: John Titor Update: Exclusive Report!

All one will get out of science is a bunch of thinking about what those scientists are thinking.

Actually Einstein admitted that he was wrong 99 out of 100 times, but his 1% was classical relativity thinking!

But the assumption still is that energy is the first thing, or like the first cause!

I merely point out that "Time" as a noun may be the first cause! But that still will not prove anything about the existence of God. Inferring that God was, is, and always will be present makes God the ultimate "time traveller"!

Actually it is the "Many Worlds Interpretation" which is the other theory, other than the Copenhagen Interpretation that is thought to be correct!

Before energy, time was compressed! (time uncompressing is motion causing energy!)

Well, anyway all I read there: (and probably not in the same order either as I read it!)

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Multiverse&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=agac2cormmlm?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Many-worlds+interpretation+of+quantum+mechanics&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01b

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Computational+tree+logic&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Conservation+law&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Hybrid+logic&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Modal+realism&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Omniverse&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Probability&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=State+theory&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Temporal+logic&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1

http://www.answers.com/topic/temporal-mechanics?hl=time&hl=travel


Well, that is about it. Pick out any link at the bottom that one feels like reading even more!

So to me and only me, I guess, I suppose:
The only way I can explain it:

Time time time!

"Time" is the subject, the noun, the first cause, the ending cause, the causes inbetween.
"time" is the verb, the action, the movement, the motion. (and Space can be thought of as movement of time, or motion of time only. Length, width, depth!
"time" is the result of the subject and verb, which allows the measurement, the uncertainty, the conservation perhaps, but that may be caused by the verb -- 'time' or action.

So "Time^3" may be a legitimate expression, if one can work through the rest of all of it, and come to that conclusion.

Also since the verb and the resultant of the noun -- time -- are all partials (differentials), there is reasoning for some form of degradation to exist -- call it entropy.

Also, I think that light may have a very small mass as stated by some, but as yet unmeasurable, due to the uncertainty of being able to measure a photon anyway. (or actually the mass of it for now!)

Otherwise to me, light would move not at c^2 but instantinously, and that is not allowed for some reason, other than all causes and events would happen at once!

Then, it also would be difficult to still prove God exists even after all of that, I guess!

And anyway, all of it is difficult to prove anyway, but a TOE (theory of everything) would also have to end up being further resolved until 'time' the noun is included.

But mathematics being precise, should be able someday to do all of that though!

The rest is imagination!

This then brings up the calendar, and the future:

http://www.answers.com/calendar

Oh, tomorrow (June 14th) is that big another Microsoft update again!

That leads to this, as it was in the Past, and perhaps, even into the Future:

Ugh! Argh! Hune-ga!

Yat devoneno plat-u-ee!

Ah!

Devono yatee plo-ta!

Oh!

Vern-ie ogo yat devona plu-ya-tee!

Ugh!

Hune-ga!

Sort of like a caveperson sort of talk:

I offer no proof of any of this though, and probably neither will the scientists!

The rest leads to the theory of money, and how it is used, and why it is used, although that is also changing, but a One World System????????

Excuse me if I only think that Space does not exist, and all of it is motion and movement and "Time"!

Oh, the only thing I get out of all of this is that --- there really is no "Answer"!

 

[Passive_Extremist]

Re: John Titor Update: Exclusive Report!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"shane\")</div>

Our actions in the middle east began in the 80's. I'm not going to get into trade sanctions, US military bases in Isreal, support of Isreal in their acts against palestine in order to maintain those bases, US military training of Jihadists during the cold war, etc in this thread, however. I'm fairly certain Noam Chomsky predicted a lot of this, and he isn't claiming to be a time traveler. [/b]

You mean when we where friends with Saddam and financing him? How does that equal WMD lie war on Iraq? Theoretically speaking Saddam SHOULD'VE had WMD since the US gave them to him, so JT's prediction went against logic and still predicted the outcome accurately...




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"shane\")</div>

I could tell you about the upcoming actions to gain control of the Saudi oil supply even as we gravitate toward alternitave energy, all the while using our own supply of oil and the Saudi's to hold the growing third world by their throats. I could tell you about the corporate outsourcing to those third world countries, then reliant on our oil, about slave labor in the typical fashion of imperialism. Would that make me a time traveler? I certainly hope not. You don't need a time machine to be aware and think for yourself.


As for your request that I educate you, Passive Extremist, I don't see how that would help you to form your own thoughts based in logic.

I knew that I lived in an imperialist police state wearing the guise of a dead republic before Titor ever made a post. I knew then, even as I know now, that past empires have proven that path to be a short one. Maybe Titor isn't really from the future, but used a time machine to go back to the Roman empire and witness its demise. Maybe, though, just maybe, he read about it like the rest of us.




Regardless of Titor's so called predictions, I can see the end of the world coming. The end of the world is always coming when your \"world\" is such a small and sheltered thing to be reliant on transient governments and luxuries. Let it come, I say. You won't find me crying in a bomb shelter.[/b]

So you could predict future wars and lies as accurate as JT did then? Let's hear it, what's our next course of action..?


JT - "Are you really surprised to find out that Iraq has nukes now or is that just BS to whip everyone up into accepting the next war?"