Debate John Titor: Real Time Traveler or a Hoaxer?

[Passive_Extremist]

Re: John Titor Debate!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Apogee\")</div>

?
No amount of training can prepare a law enforcement officer for every possible contingency. Especially where a madman whose just shot a cop is concerned. We don't know all the details of that tragedy...it sounds to me like they were presented with an impossible situation. [/b]

I certainly hope police are trained for this situation in some manner, they are professionals right? Defending our lives, and rights.. correct?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Apogee\")</div>

If its a question of hostages having rights, then do those rights not also extend to the law enforcement officer who in the course of their duty - trying to help that hostage - has their life threatened as well?[/b]

I'd say cops willingly give up some of their rights when they take a job safeguarding the public. There job is to "to protect and serve" , so I think the hostage rights should be first.

 

[StarLord]

Re: John Titor Debate!

What response did you think the police SHOULD have taken in this instance? Let the LONE armed suspect take off with his hostage to vist some other mayhem upon other innocent people?

Not shoot the baby. They should've had training to deal with this, use it. And If shooting the hostage was the answer, that means hostages have no rights.

No amount of training can prepare a law enforcement officer for every possible contingency. Especially where a madman whose just shot a cop is concerned. We don't know all the details of that tragedy...it sounds to me like they were presented with an impossible situation. If its a question of hostages having rights, then do those rights not also extend to the law enforcement officer who in the course of their duty - trying to help that hostage - has their life threatened as well?[/QUOTE]

Apogee,
Agreed as to it is almost impossible to cover all contingencies in training. If I am not mistaken wasn't the 'suspect' being sought for murdering 3 or 4 other people, he kidnaps a child, is fleeing from the law and then Fires on the law?

Sorry Passsive, but that constitutes about three moves past a Waco event. Don't get me wrong, you know as well as I that the police had all intentions of trying to save the 'hostage' up to the point that the abductor starts to fire his weapon. Try this on for size, put yourself in the shoes of the policeman, not only are you being shot at, your life is being threatened, but at anytime a known unstable threat to other innocent bystanders, meaning anyone nearby could be taken hostage also.
What would you do? Do you just let this guy fire on anybody he chooses? Do you not protect your own life as a law enforcement officer?
Here is the other thing you may or may not have touched on, IF by your indecision to stop this threat to other people, he then takes the lives of several other people, who is responsible?

 

[Passive_Extremist]

Re: John Titor Debate!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"StarLord\")</div>

?
Sorry Passsive, ?but that constitutes about three moves past a Waco event. ?Don't get me wrong, ?you know as well as I that the police had all intentions of trying to save the 'hostage' up to the point that the abductor starts to fire his weapon. [/b]

Well to each his own starlord, but to me this fits the Waco scenario to a tee, only on a smaller scale. It has all the characteristics of Waco, how law enforcment tried to pin the outcome on the "bad guy", as if they didn't pull the trigger or set the fire. They were "forced" to do it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"StarLord\")</div>

Try this on for size, ?put yourself in the shoes of the policeman, ?not only are you being shot at, ?your life is being threatened, ?but at anytime a known unstable threat to other innocent bystanders, ?meaning anyone nearby could be taken hostage also.
What would you do? ?Do you just let this guy fire on anybody he chooses? ?Do you not protect your own life as a law enforcement officer?[/b]

If it means me not having to shoot an innocent person, I'd take the bullet or just use what training I'm sure those cops have had.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Starlord\")</div>

Here is the other thing you may or may not have touched on, ?IF by your indecision to stop this threat to other people, ?he then takes the lives of several other people, ?who is responsible?[/b]

I think he still is.. He's the one doing the killing, wouldn't be me. I'm not making anyone shoot. However I'd do everything in my power to stop him without killing an innocent person, even if it meant trying to tackle him or throw rocks at him. Anything.

It doesn't make much sense to me for someone to try and justify killing an innocent person to save lives. If your job is to protect everyone's rights, I don't see how killing someone innocent would accomplish that goal. I don't think the hostage has any less rights than anyone else.. Do you?

 

[Apogee]

Re: John Titor Debate!

"If it means me not having to shoot an innocent person, I'd take the bullet or just use what training I'm sure those cops have had." {QUOTE}



You seem to have an awful lot of faith in how police 'training' should have brought this volatile, extremely violent, unpredictable and 'crazed' situation to a happy conclusion. And as for your declaration that you would have taken a bullet to avoid an innocent from doing so - I wish all our cops had your selfless, if suicidal outlook. Besides, read the article again, a cop DID take a bullet from this nut job before his colleagues were forced to take the bastard down.

As for your contention of who is responsible if he'd been allowed to continue with his shooting spree, that...

"I think he still is.. He's the one doing the killing, wouldn't be me. I'm not making anyone shoot. However I'd do everything in my power to stop him without killing an innocent person, even if it meant trying to tackle him or throw rocks at him. Anything." {QUOTE}

Throw rocks at him? No...I take back what I said about wishing we had more cops like you. That's just mad. Nut jobs on shooting rampages, drug dealers with automatic weapons and armed robbers with shotguns? But you think the cops should throw rocks rather than endanger innocent lives when attempting to protect innocent lives from these kinds of people?
Can you not hear how mad that is? Besides, what if your badly thrown rock panned in the kids' head?

"It doesn't make much sense to me for someone to try and justify killing an innocent person to save lives. If your job is to protect everyone's rights, I don't see how killing someone innocent would accomplish that goal. I don't think the hostage has any less rights than anyone else.. Do you?[/QUOTE]"

Get real. Law enforcement involves making the best sometimes of no-win situations in the same way firemen sometimes can't save every life from a burning building. No amount of training can happily resolve every situation. No one is saying that the hostage had no rights Passive. I'm sure everything was done to save the kid from the maniac holding him/her...but if you've got a guy shooting at people -and indeed actually shooting people as this guy did - and using that person as a shield (and once again you don't know the full details of what happened) you don't think that guy's even partially responsible for that kids death?

Nah. You're attempt to make this fit Titor's manifesto is very, very weak indeed. Don't worry though, as far as I can see his predictions have proved VERY open to interpretation. I'm sure the next tragic news event will make for less of an uncomfortable fit.

In the meantime...I see on the research updates thread that there's no word yet on that departure video. Hmmmm. I'm beginning to think we're never going to see it.

 

[Passive_Extremist]

Re: John Titor Debate!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Apogee\")</div>

You seem to have an awful lot of faith in how police 'training' should have brought this volatile, extremely violent, unpredictable and 'crazed' situation to a happy conclusion. And as for your declaration that you would have taken a bullet to avoid an innocent from doing so - I wish all our cops had your selfless, if suicidal outlook.[/b]

I wish all cops had that selfless attitude also, especially since it's their job, being public servants and all.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Apogee\")</div>

Besides, read the article again, a cop DID take a bullet from this nut job before his colleagues were forced to take the bastard down. [/b]

I don't feel sorry for people who knowingly sign up for situations like this, they volunteered to protect innocent people's rights and they failed. Miserably


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Apogee\")</div>

But you think the cops should throw rocks rather than endanger innocent lives when attempting to protect innocent lives from these kinds of people?[/b]

Well, that's just what I think you're failing to see Apogee, they didn't protect the childs life from these types of people . They threw away it's rights to live for the excuse of "public safety" or even more arrogantly "their own safety" . You know, I think your reaction is confirming this incident as a JT type event more so..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Apogee\")</div>

Can you not hear how mad that is? Besides, what if your badly thrown rock panned in the kids' head? [/b]

I think an accident is one thing, but these police admit to no accident. They cast blame on someone else.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Apogee\")</div>

(and once again you don't know the full details of what happened) [/b]

I know they didn't apologize ( I don't think) and blame someone else, which speaks volumes to me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Apogee\")</div>

you don't think that guy's even partially responsible for that kids death?[/b]

Sure the guy was a lot responsible, and the cops let you know it..


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Apogee\")</div>

Nah. You're attempt to make this fit Titor's manifesto is very, very weak indeed. Don't worry though, as far as I can see his predictions have proved VERY open to interpretation. I'm sure the next tragic news event will make for less of an uncomfortable fit.[/b]

Well, I've explained how I came to my conclusion, if you think it doesn't fit, please enlighten me.

 

[Apogee]

Re: John Titor Debate!

Well, I've explained how I came to my conclusion, if you think it doesn't fit, please enlighten me.[/QUOTE]

No. In this case I'm very happy for your own words to speak for themselves.

I don't feel sorry for people who knowingly sign up for situations like this

 

[StarLord]

Re: John Titor Debate!

Passive,
Have you ever served in the military? Do you know anybody personally that is in a law enforcement compacity?
Putting your life on the line day in and day out "to serve & protect" in a line other than the military, is a livelyhood that is chock full of recriminations that abound from outside yourself at the begining and then if you are not careful, may come from your self.

Consider if you will, that because of the choices you made to do this work, your wife leaves you because she can not stand another night waiting for a phone call from the duty seargent or a squad car pulling up in the wee hours of the night with the news of either grave injury or your untimely death from putting your life on the line to save the lives of other people. Consider that it may come to pass that you might loose the life long friends that you have because they feel that either they cannot trust you or that you no longer are their friend Because of the work you do.
Just as there are 'good people' and 'bad people' you have have people in law enforcement that may try to bend the laws to their own betterment. Despite the movies that we see concerning this kind of behavior and the trash publicity that it has elicited, the inner workings of internal affairs albeit might be slow to turn, they turn exceedingly fine. People make mistakes. All of us are human and no one that resides here is perfect.
However, rare is it when we get ALL the facts of any situation when our only source of a situation comes from the rabid kennel called the media. They can be counted upon to blow 85% of any situation out of proportion to match the 15% of what little actual facts they really have.

Consider also, what may be going through the particular officers mind when he or she finds out that it was their round that accidentaly killed an innocent bystander. Can you guess?, do you have any inkling? You may or may not be aware of a 'new fad' that has sprung up amongst people that have decided to 'end it all' . They of them selves don't have to guts to take their own lives, yet they see absolutely nothing wrong in forcing a police officer to commit themselves in thinking they are saving other innocent bystanders, when these seriously sick people force the police to kill them. It's called 'Death By Cop' and I find it very disturbing.

Condiser what it would do to a policeman when he or she finds out that the 'weapon' that the suspect threatened other people and other police with was either unloaded or not even real. Could you put your self in their shoes? What would that knowledge do to you knowing that you had chosen to protect and serve and some sick shit forced you to kill them?

Had there been 30 innocent people holed up in a building along with a few suspects and the whole building was destroyed by the law enforcement agencies due to their own lack of judgement, I'd say ok, that is a waco event.

This wasn't even close.

 

[Passive_Extremist]

Re: John Titor Debate!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"StarLord\")</div>

Passive,
Have you ever served in the military? ?Do you know anybody personally that is in a law enforcement compacity?
Putting your life on the line day in and day out \"to serve & protect\" in a line other than the military, is a livelyhood that is chock full of recriminations that abound from outside yourself at the begining and then if you are not careful, ?may come from your self. ?

Consider if you will, ?that because of the choices you made to do this work, ?your wife leaves you because she can not stand another night waiting for a phone call from the duty seargent or a squad car pulling up in the wee hours of the night with the news of either grave injury or your untimely death from putting your life on the line to save the lives of other people. ?Consider that it may come to pass that you might loose the life long friends that you have because they feel that either they cannot trust you or that you no longer are their friend Because of the work you do. ?
Just as there are 'good people' and 'bad people' you have have people in law enforcement that may try to bend the laws to their own betterment. ?Despite the movies that we see concerning this kind of behavior and the trash publicity that it has elicited, ?the inner workings of internal affairs albeit might be slow to turn, ?they turn exceedingly fine. People make mistakes. ?All of us are human and no one that resides here is perfect.
However, rare is it when we get ALL the facts of any situation when our only source of a situation comes from the rabid kennel called the media. They can be counted upon to blow 85% of any situation out of proportion to match the 15% of what little actual facts they really have.

Consider also, ?what may be going through the particular officers mind when he or she finds out that it was their round that accidentaly killed an innocent bystander. ?Can you guess?, ?do you have any inkling? ?You may or may not be aware of a 'new fad' that has sprung up amongst people that have decided to 'end it all' . ?They of them selves don't have to guts to take their own lives, ?yet they see absolutely nothing wrong in forcing a police officer to commit themselves in thinking they are saving other innocent bystanders, ?when these seriously sick people force the police to kill them. ?It's called 'Death By Cop' and I find it very disturbing.

Condiser what it would do to a policeman when he or she finds out that the 'weapon' that the suspect threatened other people and other police with was either unloaded or not even real. ?Could you put your self in their shoes? ?What would that knowledge do to you knowing that you had chosen to protect and serve and some sick shit forced you to kill them?

Had there been 30 innocent people holed up in a building along with a few suspects and the whole building was destroyed by the law enforcement agencies due to their own lack of judgement, ?I'd say ok, ?that is a waco event.

This wasn't even close.[/b]

Part of the first half is emotionally stimulating starlord, I'll re-read it and consider what emotional rationale you're offering.

As far as it being a Waco, I've clearly stated, I believe this is a Waco on a smaller scale. I think you might be looking at the term Waco type event too literal, I believe he used it as a example of rights violation. So think what you will, I've stated my argument and I am done.

 

[virtualgirl]

Re: John Titor Debate!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Passive_Extremist\")</div>

Part of the first half is emotionally stimulating starlord, I'll re-read it and consider what emotional rationale you're offering.

As far as it being a Waco, I've clearly stated, I believe this is a Waco on a smaller scale. I think you might be looking at the term Waco type event too literal, I believe he used it as a example of rights violation. So think what you will, I've stated my argument and I am done.[/b]

Passive,

When I was watching this on the news this morning, the same thought occurred to me. Looked to me like the cops came in full throttle. I can understand them being in high gear with the guy shooting but why not put up a barrier and let the guys ammo run out and then get him....or put up a sniper to take him out without harming the child. I believe this was a "Waco type" event. You don't have to have the military there for an "event.

VG

 

[Passive_Extremist]

Re: John Titor Debate!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"virtualgirl\")</div>

Passive,
?
When I was watching this on the news this morning, the same thought occurred to me. ?Looked to me like the cops came in full throttle. ?I can understand them being in high gear with the guy shooting but why not put up a barrier and let the guys ammo run out and then get him....or put up a sniper to take him out without harming the child. ?I believe this was a \"Waco type\" event. ?You don't have to have the military there for an \"event.
?
VG[/b]

Good point about the barrier, I didn't even think of it. I'd really hope the police had been trained for something like this, I mean I've heard of it happening in a movie, so it isn't that far fetched.