minuteman project and Waco type events thread

[Darkwolf]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

The gun rights issue has always been a hot button of mine, but today it hit close to home. My best friend from high school was arrested on "weapons charges". I don't know what aggravates me more, the laws that allow somone to get charged with a couple of felonys for having guns in his car, or the media's fearmongering, and assumption that anyone who had a couple of guns and some cammo in his car is a "dangerous person". He is far from it. Hes about the least violent person I've ever hung out with. I smell another gun control push coming, and this kind of crap is what you get out of that.

Now, can anyone spot exactly what this guy did that was illeagal. (sorry to post this here, I know its not a real waco type incident, but it is what leads to them)



For the rest of the story, see your local Sun newspaper. ? 2005 Sun Newspapers
Go to Sun Newspapers <a href=\'http://www.sunnews.com/index.htm\' target=\'_blank\'>www.sunnews.com</a> home page</span>

</span>

 

[CaryP]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

Man, I can't believe I've missed Paul's recent posts. Yeah, man, you're telling it, and I've been listening. Ain't looking too good. There's some other stuff I've been watching, like the Padilla case, that is going the wrong way.

Yeah, Darkwolf, looks like your friend is guilty of "having guns, ammo and cammo" unless it's illegal to have guns in your vehicle where he's at. Looks like a gun grab and "lock up the gun nuts" move to me. Damned disturbing.

I don't know if you had a chance to read about Rumsfeld's new SSB in the Pentagon, but these boys are free to roam where ever they want including U.S. soil without Congressional oversight. Here's the link.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/T.../06/922316.html

I've already posted the article in another thread, but this is the kind of stuff that's scaring the bejezus out of me. Let's keep our eyeballs peeled for what's coming around the bend apparently. Question is, what do we do about it?

Cary

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

Yeah, Darkwolf, looks like your friend is guilty of \"having guns, ammo and cammo\" unless it's illegal to have guns in your vehicle where he's at. Looks like a gun grab and \"lock up the gun nuts\" move to me. Damned disturbing.

I tell you, this ticks me off enough without it happening to my friends. Ohio has some strange rules about guns in cars, all excuses to grab them. I'm livid right now, I'll shut up.

don't know if you had a chance to read about Rumsfeld's new SSB in the Pentagon, but these boys are free to roam where ever they want including U.S. soil without Congressional oversight. Here's the link.

Yeagh, I read it. Now I have no problem with the military dealing with AQ nests if we find them here, but it should be done in the open. You know tell the public what happened and why, publicly thank the boys for a job well done, present medals and all that stuff. Its the secracy that makes that stink to high heaven. Why not tell us, if they iced some heavilly armed terrorists, woulden't people be glad? What do they have to hide?

 

[DWOMT]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

What if this ongoing scenario could trigger a conflict between civilians and Federal Forces?

U.S. needs to watch extremists, Fox says



Chris Hawley
Republic Mexico City Bureau
Mar. 17, 2005 12:00 AM

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]MEXICO CITY - Anti-immigrant sentiment appears to be growing in the United States, Mexican President Vicente Fox said Wednesday, and he urged U.S. officials to act quickly to control movements such as the 950-member-strong Minuteman Project on the Mexico-Arizona border.

Fox said he plans to push for U.S. immigration reform during a meeting with President Bush in Texas next week. He also said the two leaders, along with Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin, likely will announce a plan to expand the scope of the North American Free Trade Agreement.

Mexico's National Human Rights Commission recently issued a warning about several new grass-roots movements inspired by Arizona's Proposition 200. Other Mexican officials have cited the Minuteman Project, a plan by activists to patrol the border during April, as a sign of rising extremism.[/font]


\"There are signs of these kinds of problems present today, and (they are) progressing,\" Fox said during a news conference for foreign reporters. \"We have to act quickly and on time to prevent these kinds of actions.\"

He said Mexico is watching the Minuteman Project carefully and will take action in U.S. courts or international tribunals if any of the activists break the law.

\"We totally reject the idea of these migrant-hunting groups,\" Fox said. \"We will use the law, international law and even U.S. law to make sure that these types of groups, which are a minority . . . will not have any opportunity to progress.\"

Organizers of the Minuteman Project say they have signed up more than 950 volunteers, including 30 pilots with aircraft, to patrol the border for 30 days beginning April 1. The activists say they will notify the Border Patrol if they see border crossers and will not confront them directly.

Minuteman co-organizer Chris Simcox said participants are exercising their constitutional rights.

\"Vicente Fox can rant and rave all he wants, but he obviously doesn't understand what a democracy means,\" Simcox said. \"We have been working within the law.\"

I heard about this not long ago. These volunteers believe that the border patrol is not doing their job and they have failed. They believe it's time the citizens step up and protect our borders because the Govt is not doing it. I just wonder if these volunteers will be labelled as "bad guys" and targeted. The man in charge of this whole operation is a decorated Vietnam War Veteran. I wonder what will come of this, although I like what they are doing. I live in Texas and the border is wide open down here.

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

Thanks for the post DMOT, I agree that the border situation and the citizen response is a likely flashpoint.

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

Heres an interview with one of the guys. Things are apperently pretty bad down there, and if somone doesn't do something soon, residents are going to get mad enough to do something even more drastic than this. With Bush being so close with Fox, I immagine he will do something to discourage this. Also there are rumors that MM project personell are being targeted by some of the more politicized mexican gangs. That could lead to all kinds of trouble with the athorities. We have a border war going on down there, and our government isn't doing anything. Its only a matter of time before they go after those who are in order not to look bad if nothing else.

03.15.05
Interview with John Smallberries, Minuteman Project Volunteer


Illegal immigration is out of control. As a result, our nation?s security is at risk. A group of Americans has decided to do what George Bush refuses to do: protect Americans from the scourge of illegal immigration.

This is the first part of an interview with John Smallberries, a former Marine and a volunteer pilot for the Minuteman Project. The mythmaking and urban legends about the group have already begun, so I wanted to set the record straight and let you hear a firsthand account of what the project is and more importantly, why it is. Later this week I?ll interview the project?s founder, Jim Gilchrist.

For background on the Minuteman Project, see Mexico Wants Minuteman Project Gone, Modern Day Minutemen, Liberals and the Will of the People of Arizona and Proposition 200 is Now Arizona State Law.

***
Me: What is the Minuteman Project?

John Smallberries: For me - the project is simply a ?stunt? ? like a march or a sit-in. The situation at the border is 100% out of control ? but who knows that? Very few people, simply because the border is far away, there is a huge ?somebody else?s problem? issue.

What we hope to show is the lack of security, plus the HUGE numbers of people crossing the border every day IS a problem. Forget the illegal immigration issue, forget the tons and tons of dope, how about just one backpack nuke? Or a canister of nerve gas? No matter where you live ? those things could ruin your whole day! This is something that matters to all of us who enjoy breathing, and prefer not to glow in the dark. Who cares where you live? We want to help everyone understand this a problem they need to be concerned about.

Me: Tell us a little about yourself and why you volunteered.

JS: I?m a former US Marine ? many people in the project are ? but I?m not very special. I?m 38, I?ve been to Iraq twice ? once as a Marine, the second time as a ?contractor? doing training and (irony alert) border control.

A few weekends a month, I work on a ranch in San Diego that is on the US/Mexico border and help with security. There is a small group of us, and between the 10 of us, we?ve turned several thousand (yes ? thousand) folks over to the Border Patrol in 5 years. So I?m a little more in tune with the issue than most.

http://I volunteered for this operation for number of reasons. First ? Jim Gilchrist. He is an upstanding man, and this is the first ?non kooky? action I?ve seen to address the border issue. While others have tried similar efforts ? Jim is calm (mostly) , and someone I can respect. Other folks have just been too unprofessional, or reeked of ?yahoo? thrill seeker, or just plain ugly racist. He appealed to me as someone worth working for, and I would not be embarrassed to be associated with.

As to the larger issue: I believe it is practically inevitable there is going to be another 9/11 if we don?t do something at the border. Between loose nukes, and homemade WMD?s ? there are lots of ways to hurt us, and no lack of crazies who would enjoy exactly that. I think we owe the people that died last 9/11 two things: 1) avenge their deaths, and 2) prevent this from EVER happening again.

Now ? while I cannot personally handle #2 ? I can do a little. Shutting the border down, even if it?s just a little piece, makes it that much harder to get by. With the project calling attention to this subject ? maybe we can get some real security down there.

If there is another 9/11 ? I just want to be able to look the survivors in the eye and say, ?I did everything I could to prevent this day.? My hope is there are other people like me, and once they see the problem ? they?ll stop sitting on their duff, and get some attention down at the border. Or not. Whatever happens, the only non-solution is to do nothing and expect things to change. The time for pleading with Washington to ?please protect us? has passed. It?s too important to blow off and hope they eventually get clued in.

Me: A few people on my blog wondered if the volunteers were going to shoot Mexicans coming across the border. Is that true?

JS: Well ? that would be murder, and that?s a crime, even in Arizona. Yipes ? do you really think people believe that? At any rate ? we have a strict ?no contact? policy. Our volunteers are only there to observe and report. If you think of a neighborhood watch program, spread out along 20 miles of border ? that is how we are operating. So if the block watch folks would not do it ? neither will we.

To be 100% straight up with you and your readers, some of our folks are going to be armed. This is something that is really hard to understand if you have not worked near the border. Having a weapon is not only legal, it?s stupid not to have one. Most of the ranchers don?t go out without a pistol on their belt.

Again ? using only words ? it?s hard to communicate how totally out of control the situation has gotten. Think back to the LA riots. If you were out in the street when all hell was breaking loose ? would you have felt safe? The border area is less dynamic, but still very dangerous. Automatic gunfire is a common sound. Seeing dope mules with Ak47?s work drug loads over the border is a common sight. [W]hile I realize that the idea of wearing a weapon just to walk around sounds kooky, and even dangerous, your readers have to understand how totally out of control this place is. I can honestly say ? it is as dangerous as the Iraq/Iran border ? minus the landmines.

Bottom line on the weapons issue ? if someone tries to murder one of our volunteers while they sit on a hill and call for help, that person has a right to use deadly force to protect themselves. Anything other then that is a crime, and they will get prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Period.

Me: I assume you live in or near Arizona. It?s hard for some of us to understand the extent of the border crossing problem. Tell us what effect it?s had on that state.

I live in San Clemente?as I said before?I have spent plenty of time down in San Diego, which is similar. However ? the problem in Arizona is insane! It?s been years since we had a daylight drive through in San Diego (this is where a stolen truck is used to ram the border fence, then charge though to the nearest road, where dope and people are transferred to another vehicle) in Arizona ? it happens every day?[L]et me assure you and your readers of this: Come out to Arizona ? you and anyone that wants to see this with their own eyes. If you are not totally flipped out by the unbelievable chaos that is taking place ? dinner is on me.

Most folks I?ve taken down to San Diego (also open for you or your readers to see) can?t get their head around the total lack of control and lawlessness ? and it?s tame compared to AZ! Total insanity. Right here in the USA. No kidding.

***

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

FROM JOSEPH FARAH'S G2 BULLETIN

[font=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]? 2005 WorldNetDaily.com [/font]



It looks like there is going to be a second \\"showdown at the OK Corral\\" in Tombstone, Ariz., April 1.

A leader of the violent, terror-connected Latin American gang Mara Salvatruchas, Ebner Anivel Rivera-Paz, has reportedly issued orders from federal prison to members of his international criminal organization to teach a lesson to a group of Americans taking border control into their own hands.

The American civilians, known as the \\"Minutemen,\\" say they have some 750 volunteers ready to show up in Tombstone to start policing the border and dealing with illegal immigration.



The Mara Salvatruchas, founded in Los Angeles, has become one of the most violent and widespread gangs throughout South America, the U.S. and even Canada. Many of its members and leaders have been deported from the U.S., but the group is said to be deeply involved in cross-border arms-running and drug-smuggling operations, according to U.S. law enforcement sources.

Lately, the gang has joined forces with former members of the Farabundo Mart? National Liberation Front, a radical terrorist group, and some U.S. intelligence sources say they may also be cooperating with Islamic terrorist groups ? including al-Qaida.

Meanwhile, the Minutemen hope to form a group of civilians from all walks of life to patrol the border day and night ? even with the threat of such violence. Their goal is stop the flow of illegal immigration through the Arizona-Mexico border, the biggest entry point into the U.S.

Jim Gilchrist of Orange County, Calif., is leading the project.

\\"I struck the mother lode of nationalism,\\" he told a local TV station. \\"I thought I would be lucky to get 12 volunteers. In six months, I\'ve gotten almost 500.\\"

The target is a 230-mile stretch of desert along the Arizona-Mexico border. Some people call the area \\"America\'s Open Door.\\" Along this section of the border, more than 43 percent of all illegal entries to the U.S. take place.

Last year, the Tucson Border Patrol apprehended 491,000. But for every person caught, immigration sources say, at least five walk in undetected.

\\"We\'re going to set up at least 40 maybe 80 outposts, four to six people per outpost 24/7, looking for people who are infiltrating over that border,\\" said Gilchrist.

To do this, Gilchrist is amassing people from all walks of life to spend a month camped out on the border.

But some say taking the work of border patrol into their own hands could be deadly. While Gilchrist stresses non-violence, he doesn\'t rule out the possibility that many of his volunteers will be armed.

\\"Ten percent of our members are retired law enforcement officers who have a right to carry a concealed weapon. They probably will carry and you won\'t know it,\\" he said.

But Andy Adame with the U.S. Border Patrol in Tucson warned \\"people are going to get hurt.\\" Adame said many of these volunteers don\'t know what they\'re in for.

\\"When you have untrained civilians, that are armed, that are out in the middle of the desert, in the middle of the night, in the dark, and they meet up with one of these smuggling organizations ... you\'re going to have a gun fight,\\" said Adame.

Border patrol agents have seen a growing problem with violence in recent years. Agents have been attacked by frustrated smugglers with rocks, bricks, even automatic weapons.

According to authorities, violence along the Tucson sector has climbed to an all-time high.

\\"Bringing untrained civilians into this border environment is a recipe for disaster,\\" said Adame.

But that has not deterred many of the volunteers.

The Minutemen even have an air force. They plan to use about two dozen aircraft to patrol the skies near the border.

Rivera-Paz was arrested three weeks ago and is accused of murdering more than two dozen people in Honduras. He was wanted in connection with the December bus massacre of 28 people, including six children, in San Pedro Sula, Honduras.

The Mara Salvatruchas identify themselves with tattoos, such as \\"MS\\" or the numbers 13 and 18, signifying their relationship to the gang. The gang formed in the United States in the 1980s in a Los Angeles prison. The 13 and 18 signify the city streets in L.A. where they hung out.

U.S. officials are concerned the gang members might help sneak al-Qaida terrorists into America.

Rivera-Paz was charged with illegally entering the United States after being deported, but is expected to be extradited to Honduras to face charges in connection with the bus massacre. <A href=\\"http://www.g2bulletin.com\\"/\\">Subscribe to Joseph Farah\'s G2 Bulletin

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Ain\'t that nice, the government, the gangbangers and the terrorists all against the citizens.

 

[CaryP]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

I saw an article where the INS is making some effort to round up some of the MS - 13 boys. Probably is just a drop in the bucket, but hey, they're showing some "effort." It's from the NYT so I'll copy the whole article here.

Cary

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/15/national...15gangs.html?th

100 Members of Immigrant Gang Are Held

? ? By CHARLIE LeDUFF ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
Published: March 15, 2005

? ?
? ? ? ? ?
LOS ANGELES, March 14 - Federal immigration authorities announced Monday that they had arrested more than 100 members of a violent Central American street gang in a nationwide crackdown.

The gang, Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, was born in the Rampart district of Los Angeles and has since multiplied across the continent, involving itself in narcotics and gun trafficking, murder and prostitution, law enforcement officials said.

Many of the gang members are illegal immigrants, mostly from Latin American countries like El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala. Those arrested have a litany of criminal charges on their records, and some are immigration violators who were ordered deported but either returned to the United States or never left in the first place.

?In total, 103 people were arrested over the past month by agents of the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

\"By bringing the full range of I.C.E.'s immigration and customs authorities in the fight against violent street gangs, we can take hundreds of gang members off the streets and have a significant impact on community safety,\" said Michael Garcia , the Department of Homeland Security assistant secretary and director of the immigration and customs bureau.

The man said to be the leader of the MS-13 gang was arrested in Texas in early February. That man, Ever Anibal Rivera Paz, known as El Culiche, or the Tapeworm, was recognized by his tattoos, one of the gang's hallmarks. He had escaped from prison in Honduras, where he was accused of masterminding an attack on a bus that killed 28 people.

Federal agents, working on information provided by state and local law enforcement officials, arrested 30 suspected MS-13 members in the New York area, 25 in Washington, 17 in Los Angeles, 10 in Newark, 10 in Miami, 10 in Baltimore and 1 in Irving, Tex.

Among those arrested in Los Angeles was a former member of the Salvadoran military who admitted to the authorities that he was a founding member of the MS-13 gang in Hollywood. The man has convictions for weapons violations, robbery and mail theft and was arrested on immigration violations.

\"MS is not a gang, it's an army,\" said Officer Frank Flores, a gang expert with the Los Angeles Police Department, who says MS-13 membership numbers in the tens of thousands nationwide. \"Within the United States, these guys pose as much a threat to the well being of ordinary citizens as any foreign terrorist group.\"

Another man, arrested in Long Branch, N.J., is suspected of being the leader of the MS-13 cell there. He has a criminal history of aggravated arson, weapons possession, grand larceny and possession of stolen property. He, too, was arrested on administrative immigration violations.

One problem with dealing with criminal illegal immigrants, law enforcement officials say, is that cities like Chicago, Denver, Houston, Los Angeles, Miami and New York have either written or understood \"sanctuary\" policies that prohibit their law enforcement officers from asking a suspect about his immigration status. This makes it difficult for police officers to work with federal immigration authorities until an illegal immigrant commits a crime.

The thinking is that illegal immigrants who lead normal and productive lives would be unwilling to approach the police as witnesses if they feared that they, too, would be deported.

The problem is especially acute in Los Angeles, where gang members often return after being deported. Local police officers may know a criminal by face, but until they catch him in an illegal act, he is allowed to remain on the streets.

But a new era may be dawning in the fight against gangs, as police departments like Los Angeles's share street intelligence with the federal authorities.

\"You think an immigrant Hispanic family who is here illegally would mind if we targeted the violent criminal?\" Capt. Michael Downing, commander of the Hollywood precinct, asked. \"I don't. But every time you mention it, they say it's a slippery slope and so the violent criminal is tolerated.\"

In Central America, the judicial system has employed a no-tolerance policy for gang members deported from the United States known as \"mano dura\" or the \"hard hand.\" Gang members deported there may prefer to return to the United States rather than risk the long sentences for gang affiliation and particularly onerous prison life there.

Federal immigration officials estimate that there are 80,000 to 100,000 criminal illegal immigrants in the United States. If the 30,000 in the Los Angeles area were all to be apprehended at the same time, they would overwhelm the 1,400 beds allotted for them. So immigration officials say the current operation is meant to single out the most hardened criminals with longstanding gang ties.

\"L.A. isn't the only place where this is happening,\" said Virginia Kice, a spokeswoman for the immigration bureau. \"We've thrown down the gauntlet, and this is only the beginning.\"


?

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

Those guys are some serious bad news. What concerns me is that if they and the minutemen get into a firefight, the government agents are going to go after the minutemen. That could lead to a few wacos, then there are some more extreme groups down there who may well decide to retaliate, poof you have the beginnings of the conflict. Also what would happen if the Mexican military decided to get involved?

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

By CHRIS RICHARD / The Press-Enterprise
</span>

IMMIGRATION CONFRONTATION A coalition of Inland Empire Latino and immigration-rights activists will hold a series of demonstrations to counter The Minuteman Project.

Protest: Local activists plan to voice their objection today to the Minuteman Project\'s goal of citizens patrolling the border with Mexico. Protesters will take up position near the Aliso Viejo home of Minuteman founder James Gilchrist..

Latino and immigration-rights activists announced plans Friday to challenge the Minuteman Project, a group that proposes to patrol a stretch of the U.S. border with Mexico early next month on the lookout for undocumented immigrants.

During a press conference at La Placita Park in San Bernardino, UC Riverside professor Armando Navarro, a coordinator for the National Alliance for Human Rights, called Minuteman members \"terrorists\" and predicted that they would treat border-crossers violently during the monthlong patrols scheduled to begin April 1.

Navarro said his coalition would warn people at the border about Minuteman, and would confine themselves to nonviolent tactics.

However, he added, \"We will adjust to the situation, and obviously some of us have experience in the military. We know that what we have to put in black and white is one aspect, and what not needs to be put in black and white is the other aspect of our strategy. So there will be maybe some elements of surprises in terms of activities, and that is a warning to the militias.\"

James Gilchrist, the organizer of the Minuteman Project, did not respond to phone messages.

Today, activists planned to demonstrate near Gilchrist\'s home in Orange County.

A Web site purporting to be run by the Minuteman organization says that the project is nonviolent and that this \"is not a call to arms, but a call to voices seeking a peaceful and respectable resolve to the chaotic neglect by members of our local, state and federal governments charged with applying U.S. immigration law.\"

The Web site says that 956 volunteers from across the country have signed up to watch for undocumented immigrants near Tombstone, Ariz. Law enforcement authorities have warned the group of the dangers of confronting border-crossers. They have said they will not interfere with the border watch unless Minuteman members break the law.

UCR graduate student Jesse Diaz Jr. insisted that he will not resort to violence. But, referring to reports that some Minuteman activists carry weapons, he said \"there\'s no reason some of us can\'t go armed, too.\"

Reach Chris Richard at (909) 806-3076 or <a href=\'mailto:[email protected]\'>[email protected]</a>

[/quote]



Armed activist protesters? Surprises, Warnings to the militias? Politicized terrorist gangbangers, Federal agents. We have a real crap storm brewing here. I know I\'ve been harping on this one alot today, but I just have a feeling if Titor wasn\'t a complete liar, heres the first engagement. [/b]