People talking of splitting USA (red-blue map)

[Judge Bean]

People talking of splitting USA (red-blue map)

Originally posted by pauli@Nov 5 2004, 10:58 PM

QUOTE:
Yes, I agree with this: a revolution will not be an option for most of the socially prominent class. As usual.



Please clarify, who is the most socially prominent class you are referring to. The traditional types seem to me to be most prominent, but thats probably where I am.

Phil

....I would say, given the split in the country, what we are really looking at, is a split in differences of values systems. We have a, more-or-less, Secular Elite that is more in line with European thinking and a Traditional Religious/Conservative group that holds to the values that were established by the Constitutional framers. (I know I am going to get flamed for this one. :dry: )

....Could fascism hit America? It is possible, but, again, it won't happen in that exact same way... It could happen here, however, don't look for it to be exactly the same. It will probably be an entirely new monster.

What I believe Titor's War is about is the difference between the Secular Left and the Religious Right. Of course, I could be wrong about this one.

Change that, it will either be an entirely new monster... or a new twist on one of the old monsters.

​

I think that all of this is correct. Remember the broad strokes of the threat, and how fascism happens politically and socially. Then consider this: the Bush administration is just now working to demonize a minority, and pass laws against it. It is doing this to coalesce political power, and has apparently gained election of the leader by a propaganda campaign against the unprotected minority, which is said to seek to "undermine our way of life," corrupting our morals, threatening our children's welfare, endangering the pure, virtuous reproduction of the race-- er, I mean, threatening marriage.

Strike one...

 

[Timmy G]

People talking of splitting USA (red-blue map)

Forgive me if I offend anyone with this election result map...
[attachmentid=178]

It probably should go in the 'humor' section, however it is the topic of this thread.

Question: Does anyone know of any groups or organizations that are trying to oust the electoral college process? If so, please share. IMHO, when looking at the big picture - our great country's restoration will not take place all at once. The broad stroke of an attempted civil war may be enough to give those in Washington exactly what they want & need to keep the tides in their favor. When it comes to restoration of any kind, you need to pick a place to start (a good idea is to start at the one place that is most needed). So, perhaps to stop or veer this dramatic 'red' and 'blue' split of our country, we need the so called 'electoral votes' to come in numbers represented more equally within each section of the country, not each state. Maybe each county in each state is represented by a 'so called' electoral vote.

Don't you think that the people in their respective counties around this country feel that they know what's best for them, their neighbors and community? I live in a town of 10,000 people. The laws I have to live by are generally made for the good folks of Chicago. The taxes I pay are to help the good folks of Chicago. Heck, the coal burning power plant just 10 miles from my house even supplies most of the power to Chicago... What makes the lawmakers think that this rural farm town should be governed like one of America's biggest cities? Too bad I live 300+ miles from Chicago...

The farmers vote for one guy, college kids for another, liberals for another, etc. So, why does the entire states collective vote have to go to just one candidate in a presidential election? (that is a rhetorical questions sprinkled with sarcasm )
As many many many folks have already said, the electoral college must go.
So, who has already started to undertake this tremendous task, ...does any body know?


Knock 'em down at their knees and they'll have trouble getting up

 

[Darkwolf]

People talking of splitting USA (red-blue map)

Question: Does anyone know of any groups or organizations that are trying to oust the electoral college process? If so, please share. IMHO, when looking at the big picture - our great country's restoration will not take place all at once. The broad stroke of an attempted civil war may be enough to give those in Washington exactly what they want & need to keep the tides in their favor. When it comes to restoration of any kind, you need to pick a place to start (a good idea is to start at the one place that is most needed). So, perhaps to stop or veer this dramatic 'red' and 'blue' split of our country, we need the so called 'electoral votes' to come in numbers represented more equally within each section of the country, not each state. Maybe each county in each state is represented by a 'so called' electoral vote.

The solution here is to give greater atonamy to local areas, cut federal taxes and let smaller reagions determine how much to tax their citizens and what to do with the money. I think the electoral college needs to go too, but barring a major shake up I think its with us to stay. The best you can do right now is try to push to requisition the votes by percentage in your state. We had that on the ballot in my corner of dumb##%%istan, but it went down harder than Kerry did.

Mabey we can re label the red states United States, and the blue ones The People's Republic of Amerika.

 

[Timmy G]

People talking of splitting USA (red-blue map)

I think the electoral college needs to go too, but barring a major shake up I think its with us to stay.

Define Major Shake Up. (outside the obvious; civil war - nuclear holocaust - etc.)

If this was supposed to be a people's government, what happens when the people speak? What could the government say about a petition to change something that has millions of signatures? I suppose they could say 'so.... who gives a rats CENSORED too bad man, go away', but don't you think they couldn't ignore it?

Just how are the people supposed to make change anyway? The electoral college may stay - but it needs a freakin' tune up.

You see, thats the problem in my eyes. It isn't any individuals problem, it is the problem of the people. We've been told in school that the government is one of the people - yet we aren't instructed on how to make change (as the people), with the exception that virtually anyone can run for public office (and for sake of time - I'm not going there). ...and speaking of Constitutional rewriting; Did you see the latest? Even Arnold Schwarzenegger says he'd run for President IF an amendment would be added allowing foreign born peeps to run for that office? Here's a recent article Arnold for president speculation grows

It's like we are all on the outside, with our faces up to the glass - kind of like that Jeep commercial where only a few people on the street have dirt on their face because they were looking through the muddy windows trying to get a glimpse of the interior - and we cannot do anythying but watch. Believing this actually makes me want to vomit.



...... I still feel like vomiting

 

[Judge Bean]

People talking of splitting USA (red-blue map)

You can't redesign the Constitution because you're on the losing side in a fair election.

On the other hand, you can't continue to govern this country on the delusional basis employed by the Bush people, and fueled by hatred of a minority.

 

[StarLord]

People talking of splitting USA (red-blue map)

Hmmmm Fair election?

How do we know it was fair? How do we know that it wasnt a more sophisticated "Florida" with missing holes or too many holes being replaced with screwed electronic results? Far easier to keep a 'back door' open than it ever would to put a small hole in a piece of paper.

 

[sosuemetoo]

People talking of splitting USA (red-blue map)

Originally posted by Timmy G@Nov 8 2004, 08:04 PM
Maybe each county in each state is represented by a 'so called' electoral vote.

Good idea Timmy! If we used that, you would see again that Bush did win. Here's a county by county map:

 

[Timmy G]

People talking of splitting USA (red-blue map)

Good idea Timmy! If we used that, you would see again that Bush did win. Here's a county by county map:

sosuemetoo:
Exactly my point -

You can't redesign the Constitution because you're on the losing side in a fair election.

Paul:
I don't know if this comment was directed to me;

For starters, let me say this. No matter who wins the election, for Mayor - States Attorney - Governor or President, I will support that person as someone who is trying to make our country better (provided they attempt to do so). I may not like some of the things they do - but I certainly wont run around the playground whining about how somebody stepped over the line, or tugged on Suzie's braids. For crying out loud WE ARE ALL Americans .

I did not say anything about redesigning the Constitution because I'm supporting a loser in a fair *cough cough * election. I do however, believe in a level playing field. The idea that each state can submit votes for only one candidate is silly as I see it. Sure, it may have made sense 200 hundred years ago, but today it doesn't. (IMHO)

The idea that Americans are to sit idly by while the government in charge (no matter it republican nor democrat) places highly suspect voting machines, only in states that truly matter (swing states, etc.) - is a bunch of BULL-#^%%. The idea that we are to just simply take it really bends my rod.

Specific evidence of miscounting has been uncovered. And, despite the national media's near-blackout of the issue, local reporting has documented some of the problems. In fact, although you won't learn it from the corporate media, three members of Congress have asked the General Accounting Office to investigate irregularities with voting machines in the November 2 election. The Congress Members, John Conyers, Jerrold Nadler, and Robert Wexler, cited a few of the problems that have already arisen, including a machine in a single Ohio precinct awarding Bush an extra 3,893 votes...? <a href=\'http://www.ilcaonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=950&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0\' target=\'_blank\'>COMPLETE ARTICLE FOUND HERE</a>

When we take it to the lowest level, counting votes by county instead of state - and make them count as such , the possibility of voting fraud could potentially become much less of an issue (for all parties involved). Allbeit, until this happens and each state can only cast ALL OF THEIR ELECTORAL VOTES FOR JUST ONE CANDIDATE, it can never be just.

This country is great... or, once used to be. It still has the potential, provided we 'stop looking in' and get on the inside to look out for a change.

 

[Judge Bean]

People talking of splitting USA (red-blue map)

Originally posted by Timmy G@Nov 9 2004, 05:52 PM
....I did not say anything about redesigning the Constitution because I'm supporting a loser in a fair *cough cough * election. I do however, believe in a level playing field. The idea that each state can submit votes for only one candidate is silly as I see it. Sure, it may have made sense 200 hundred years ago, but today it doesn't. (IMHO)

The idea that Americans are to sit idly by while the government in charge (no matter it republican nor democrat) places highly suspect voting machines, only in states that truly matter (swing states, etc.) - is a bunch of BULL-#^%%. The idea that we are to just simply take it really bends my rod.

​

I didn't mean to single you out for any particular criticism, but you have to back up and look at the election from a wider perspective. An unfair election was had here in this country in 1960, 1972, 1980, and 2000. The last one was almost too much for the Constitution to bear. The "winner" lost the popular vote; the "winning" State electoral delegation voted under a shadow.

Consider the difficulty of rigging the election by four million votes nationwide. Then consider what would have happened had Kerry won Ohio: he would have lost the popular vote by four million, and his supporters would have torn the country apart to get him the office on the basis of the obsolete electoral college vote. Bush's people may not have surrendered the White House... you think that 2000 was bad...

This is the difference between an unfair and a fair election: 2000 and 2004. Or: 2004 in this timeline, and 2004 in the timeline in which Kerry pulls off a squeaker in Ohio at 4:00 in the morning.

The electoral college is obsolete just because of the potential anomalous results-- that is, the potential for a 2000 election result, or the result that almost occurred because of the Ohio vote last week. Please let's differentiate between honest results (or as honest and fair as we can get) and plain crime, as in Florida in 2000.

The real threat to the democratic process represented by Bush is in the form of his political advisor Karl Rove, Vice President Cheney, and the collection of amoral conspirators surrounding him and feeding him advice without any accountability. You can't impeach Karl Rove. These people are urging Bush daily to circumvent or just plain ignore the Constitution, and they have so far been successful and he has done what they want. Well, how could he do otherwise?

While you're reforming the process, you might want to do away with the Senate, too. What is it supposed to be again? Does anybody remember what the Senate is supposed to represent?

 

[StarLord]

People talking of splitting USA (red-blue map)

We need that cartoon of the "Bill" with the voice of that trumpet player, showing us how a law actually gets made. Thats about as close to reality as we can get for this question. I never thought I would be thanking ABC Rock.