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Like paranormal and time travel?
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- Thread starter Phoenix
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The Grandmother Paradox
Cygnus_X
Posted: Aug 26 2003, 09:14 AM
Hi Phoenix!
Your point is well made but I maintain the everyhing is math model. And I still think chance does not exist.
Brain is certainly complex and as we look at it we may see some kind of \"will\" but in fact we can calculate that will is physique, everything a brain can think we can calculate it, its juste electricity fallowing a path into your brain, witch is build from tissus and neurons. Brain is like a big maze for electricity every though is one path trough that maze, information is not \"writen\" like in an hard drive.
Now you can'T put a (universal factor) on mother death or smile of a stranger cause it's not the same electricity path an not he same factor for everyone. Maybe for one baseball player is mother's death will not have a big impact on him and is brain but for an other it will .
We will have to chek what path is used for every tough and how many time that path as been used for one specific person. We will repeat the operation for everybody in the team and in the crowd and everybody each of them have meet in there live to know witch path electricity has taken. We will aslo look how electricity act on that brain when he see blue sky, cloudy sky, orange ball, blue bicycle....
And the most important of all NO factors are meaningless, Just like the butterfly in affrica causing a tornado in USA. (that's why wheater prediction are never good at long term, there is always something to disturb) But if we enter every factors when I mean everything it's everything even the 73498734 protons an the 45633355 electrons of the red underwear of his grand mother you will get a good result.
By the way I know our simple humain knowlege and capacity does not alowed us such of math but maybe someday the most powerfull brain or computer of the world will...
And to return to the main subject I think if you change a little thing in the past as little as it can be that will affect the future. If you kill hitler or if you move a simple rock, maybe by moving that rock someone will hit this rock fall down smash in head against the ground, miss his plane by missing his plane never meet your mother so you are not born.
Looking forward to your respons
The Grandmother Paradox
Phoenix
Posted: Aug 27 2003, 11:23 PM
If everything has such drastic consequence it all gets canceled out in a vast static grey, because everything else is over impacting every impact. For a computer we would hit a processor overload.
Lets take everything back to plasma or ether or brahma. From such primary substance building outward we should get all the electrons, carbon, water, languages, galaxies of the universe. Which according to you is predictable by math so long as we can
a) Data: accurately measure all the \"ether\" and
B) Process: correctly formulate the equations of the ether
something like s = 1/d, e = 1/d^2, m = 1/d^3 ( fake example )
would be the equation we have when it is all said and done
And with that information we should be able to generate the 3rd revision of Hamlet by Shakespeare and the kind of ink and parchment he used. Just by infinitesimally knowing all the mass in the universe and plotting it against the elegant universal equation.
Well I would call this a theory without proof. The only proof would be to have the data and process. If an infinitesimally refined and completely accurate and fully comprehensive assessment of all mass was assessed and authoritatively documented, and the stroke of brilliance to simplify the daunting complexity of data into singularly unifying consistent principle that can be easily applied and never failed to give the correct result.
The equation would probably be easier to achieve than the data collection, not to say the equation would be easy to figure out.
Lets for arguments sake state that the theory is correct and such an equation does exist. If it did exist things, all things in the universe would unfailingly operate by it's principle, regardless of weather or not the data and equation were known by people.
That is
The earth would still spin around the sun without knowledge of all of the infinitesimal measurements of mass involved through the whole universe and parallel time lines effecting the earth's spin. Further people could be completely ignorant of what equation governs the earth's spin.
But people would be able to stumble onto equations and because a underlying principle exists these equations would work being just aspects of this one principle.
Because such equations as F= ma have been discovered it is suggestive of this overall assumption.
But with such uncertainty and near impossibility of proof can the universal equation be effectively used as an argument against a competing idea? That competing idea being chance. In fact by the nature of chance to not demonstrate any sort of reason, how is it possible to argue it's existence?
Chance can only be concluded as a negative space of causation, in the artistic sense of the word. That is a known delineation of causation would be the subject, and chance would be what causation was not. Just as a drawing may be of a girl and the negative space around her neck would be what the neck was not.
The only tactic against such a contrast is to push known causation beyond the boundary of knowledge. Which is effectively what the appeal to more refined data does. Stating we must know even the color of the particle of underwear, pushes our hope of knowledge out of reach. If it is out of reach their is nothing to contrast and no hope of seeing chance. It would be like extending the neck to the edge of the paper so a negative space can not exist.
Without any standards to pose a contrast and see the fuzz of chance existing outside of it, one can be lazy and have no work to defend. It would be left to the defender of the concept of chance to construct both the standard of causation and the example of contrasting chance. The defender of causation could then sit back and say, well that is not the standard of causation, because a true standard would not fall to chance. It is thus impossible to win or persuade against such standards.
This is all but talk. If we dealt with a real subject matter we may detail the points in a more refined and coherent matter. It should be a subject we all have access to and can readily comprehend. Lets take this web site as the particular instance. According to the math theory an underlying equation can be used to plot it, all the subjects that are or will be, all the letters and punctuation, all of the freeze ups and times it will not show up when you type the address. I will leave it to you, if you will, to try and create an equation that would reasonably and accurately plot these events. Actually such an equation must first exist in order to begin to reason the basis for chance. Maybe you have a simpler subject we can use to address the matter.
The Grandmother Paradox
Cygnus_X
Posted: Aug 29 2003, 08:25 PM
You ve made me see very interesting point in that last post. Like if we have such of math will sould be able with all of the concentrate matter of the big bang, predic the winner of the 2004 baseball final.
Seems to be ridiculous, but let enter all components of the big bang in one \" Hallucinating power computer\" recreating the big bang in the exact same way it did the firts time, every molecule will fallow the path they were fallowing before, building stars, galaxie, sun, earth, moon ... everything will be the exact same way it was before. It's like a calculator enter 2 + 2 and everytime it give 4. If you enter the 1000 000 000 000 of molecule + Explosion inertie and gravity everytime it will done the same patern again an again.
Life will begin on earth at the exact same years. Now push your computer and go furter in your calculation and you will see you birth push it furter and you will see \"the futur\" But for the universe itself the concept of future and past have no really sense.
If we think we made choice it just because of the humain perception. Even if I put a red and blue glass in front of you (even if you really don't know yourself witch one you will \"chose\") you will not made a choice you will just do what all factors since the begining of unviverse push you to do. Suppose you chose the red one, I will say to you : \"you never chose the blue one in that precise instant\" Cause every action before in your life and before in the universe will influence you on chosing that glass.
In fact we are just a bunch of influence directly or not of all the world surounding us. I am sure you have not decided the language the first language you speak your parent does it for you. In the same kind of idea but in realy more complex, nobody never decided nothing. Just by reading this I influence you in one way or and other positively or not, depending of your own past. Everyone of us if we go back in time take the little us at the age of 1 month and put it in and other family, an other contry and in an other time, we will act totaly differently, speak an other language and have different values an interest
An other way to see it, it's like a VHS let's say an horror movie, You watching it for the second time you think the girl have the choice to go upstair or downstair but there is not choice at all for her event if rewind it 1000 times she will always do the same thing. We all tought we are in the present and we can make choice but in the infinity of universe it's already past.
The Grandmother Paradox
Phoenix
Posted: Aug 30 2003, 09:56 AM
Well I think we have both nicely exhausted the theory and points of the theory with some very good examples.
Unless we propose an experiment and carry it out and report our findings. I think the talk for this subject has been nicely expressed leaving much to think about and take with us in our lives.
I think at this point I will just say, free will and chance are two subjects I still use to consider the universe. And I know as you said before, go back and forth between the VHS model of time and the multi universe. So if we talked any more on this subject I think we would only be telling more about ourselves and not about the subject. Even though the theories we have of it are very deep.
So in conclusion, a good talk Cygnus_x. I have enjoyed myself.
The Grandmother Paradox
On the third post to this subject I made a reference with a dead link. Here is the live link.
http://web.archive.org/web/19961121192756/...uture_Page.html
Among the various intresting things said in it, a result of casualty violation, Alex Tyler, Jason and Shawn's time line was changed so they were killed. Their alternative time line selves became greatly fatigued.
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With great difficulty I finally managed to wake the sleeping four from the future. Even after several strong cups of coffee they remained barely able to maintain consciousness. Only after Anatoly administered each young man with an injection of a strong stimulant, were they able to obtain full cognition. The significance of their fatigue eludes us. -- RHB --
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end of page
So by this theory if you do go back and shoot your grandmother, you become more and more fatigue until you die.
The Grandmother Paradox
Phoenix
Posted: Aug 30 2003, 10:39 AM
Here is a limerick from an \"evil\" alien on that same page
Using reason, foolish men began to question the gods
Those of higher intelligence did not like them odds
What if man discovers that he's irreducibly complex
Problem solved--just tell him that his body naturally selects
Can you figure out the meaning before reading the page?
The Grandmother Paradox
Cygnus_X
Posted: Aug 30 2003, 11:44 AM
What a nice ending. I totaly agree. That was very interesting and by the way I've learn alot on that forum topic speaking with you.
We have both express some good idea on the matter with deep theorie support by strong exemple. Like you said unless we propose an experiment it's just some \"good theorie\"... but it's we good theorie that maybe someday we will succed to build the real time machine...
I am sure we will find other interesting topic to talk about on that forum...
The Grandmother Paradox
David
Posted: Dec 31 2003, 12:50 PM
I was thinking about something.
If we liken the single universe theory to a VCR tape, and using the very rules we assume govern the single universe theory, Time travel can't exist.
Let me explain my reasoning:
Lets say we are in a single timeline/universe.
I attempt to travel 5 years in the past. If I make it, and actually exist in my past form, and my future form, this in itself creates a paradox. I've not rewound the VCR tape, but I have altered it by existing twice in the same timeframe. (ie 12:30pm on January 9, 1998, I exist in 2 forms, in 2 places.) Also, the future me meets the past me, and says\" Hi, I'm you 5 years from now.\" the past me will know that I'll be traveling to the past. Just having this knowledge would alter my life because I have knowledge that I didn't have before, thus once again altering the future. If it's like a VCR tape, the ending or the content can't change.
If this happened, would the future me be my current age in the past, or would I be the same age as the past me? Would events that happen to the past me, affect the future me while I was in the past?
The Grandmother Paradox
Phoenix
Posted: Dec 31 2003, 02:58 PM
The VCR tape theory like the Math is everything theory implies no freewill, rather freewill is only a conceptual illusion.
If I make it, and actually exist in my past form, and my future form, this in itself creates a paradox. I've not rewound the VCR tape, but I have altered it by existing twice in the same time frame.
The VCR theory by definition is not alterable. To go to your past implies that you will go to you past and have been to your past. The event, like all events in the "tape", is unalterable.
Just having this knowledge would alter my life because I have knowledge that I didn't have before, thus once again altering the future.
The knowledge would be there because it was there when you first went through, because it did happen that time and could not be any other way.
Would events that happen to the past me, affect the future me while I was in the past?
There is no cause or effect in the sense of change in the VCR model what happens, happens, did, will, is.
I think what your are tripping up on is trying to use open reasoning in the closed VCR model. To use the model you must accept it's conditions, otherwise you wind up with contradictions like you did.
Let's say you wanted to make a cake without eggs and then you say if it has eggs in it then it is a paradox. It will only have eggs in it if you put them in there, which you should not be doing.
Thus when you consider the VCR model you must not think about it as having anything being altered, because by definition it is not.
Time Travel would play out as having it's corresponding part in the past and inevitable precedence in the future, for a backward time travel event.
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