The Grandmother Paradox

[darkbreed]

Re: The Grandmother Paradox

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"JRSpencer\")</div>

MTL:

DARKBREED:

Whoa, whoa. Hold your horses, Betsy. I'm new here. Be kind. If you don't know what I'm talkin' 'bout, then you're unfamiliar with Stephen Hawking's Chronology Protection Conjecture which is a variation of Fermi's Paradox of why there are no otherworldly beings on 3rd Rock from the Sun. Hawking feels we would have been awash with travelers from the future if time travel were possible. Seems like a weak way out, but he's Hawking and I am not.

I don't know if physical time travel has occurred. But I know John Titor sure as hell didn't \"hop-skip-and-jump\" from worldline to worldline then back down the rabbit hole again.

Please be sure to reply.[/b]

Yes I am not really familiar with that. But now that you shed alittle light on it for me, all I can say is there are many things through history that suggests both otherworldly beings and/or possible time travel interference. So I think they are wrong when claiming there have not been any/are none here.

When it comes to John Titor, how do you know he didnt do something like that?

 

[JRSpencer]

Re: The Grandmother Paradox

Only because I'm thinking about how a realistic traveler would conduct themselves. I mean, if he's jumping through different worldlines, I'm sure in his world there must be a story about a John Titor from another worldline right? This is all speculation of course, but couldn't it be true since he "appeared" in our worldline?

 

[JRSpencer]

Re: The Grandmother Paradox

Also, if he grew up in a worldline where "John Titor" materialized in 2000 and posted on forums and such, was he compelled to do the same for us? (How kind of him.)

 

[darkbreed]

Re: The Grandmother Paradox

If he did things properly i guess he should have been able to "cover his traces" in his own originally worldline that he came from, in other words making sure there would be no such stories there. And I think thats exactly what should be possible to do with the method i decribed above.

If he has
1. - His original timeline from where he came
2. This timeline where WE are and he dropped by
3. A timeline in the past where he did not interfere

Then, if he jumps from this timeline (2.) to a timeline in the past (3.) and at once moves from that timeline (3.) to the future I assume he would end up in his original timeline (1.) without any signs of intereference in our timeline (2.) visible for anyone there, because there it never happend.

 

[JRSpencer]

Re: The Grandmother Paradox

Okay, fine. So there were no postings in Titor's timeline. But why do it at all? I've read his..."work." He boasts people shouldn't believe him and he doesn't expect them to. Why go through the trouble of posting is you know beforehand no one will give a *&$@? Unless the college kids who thought Titor up wanted to be considered cult heroes to some extent. A review on Barnes & Noble.com reads:

This 'John Titor' guy or guys (we'll consider it to be one entity for now) is obviously some sort of science major, probably physics/astrophysics and likely in a Masters or Doctorate program. Maybe he grew up in Hillsborough County, FL (he claims to have been educated at a Florida university in that county). He's clearly Libertarian, and spent quite a bit of time logically planning and then posting a 'future-history' on several websites. This book is the culmination of that work. Does he predict things? Yes. Did some of them come true? Yes, and some of them were hush-hush things that a doctorate student would know before anyone else. Does he make some insightful comments about society and behaviours, about a possible future? Sure. Like I said, he clearly logically planned out his future-history. I view 'John Titor' to be a form of modern-day Jonathan Swift. Instead of writing essays and papers, however, his social parody comes in the form of internet posts and a compilation. Interesting, but in the end disappointing. Should have made it a series of pulp sci-fi novels.

Makes you wonder. Titor is a pied piper of sorts. He's convinced a lot of people. He basically avoided having to tell the truth at all. I'll simplify all of his posts by presenting them with these two sentences:

The following sentence is true.
The preceding sentence is false.

He didn't have to refer to any truth value. Even he said, "it's best if you don't believe me."

 

[darkbreed]

Re: The Grandmother Paradox

I didnt really try to turn this into a discussion about wether I believe John Titor to be real or a hoax. I don't know if he is or not yet, maybe time will tell. It doesnt really even matter. His theories on time travel are still intersting, so is many of his so called predictions and other things he said.

I'm just trying to discuss time travel possibilities and theories, and if what he claimed to have done could be possible, not if it was actually real or not. Only if things like this can be done with the right technology and knowledge.

Personally I have little doubt that it is possible, and that it has been done, and experimented with by goverments.

 

[JRSpencer]

Re: The Grandmother Paradox

You're right. This did spiral out of control. But parallel worldlines aside let's look at this Grandmother Paradox this point of view:

1. CIRCULAR (LINEAR) THEORY OF TIME
The general theory of time travel that most events are regulated by is called the Circular Theory of Time. In this theory one is required to picture the space-time continuum as a 'laser disk', a circular plane with a starting point at the centre. The creation of the universe is dubbed Event One, and it is this that the centre of the disc represents. As time passes everything moves out in a spiral fashion until the boundary is reached. At the boundary it is theorised that time runs backwards (the Universal Entropy State) and all event waves now head towards Event One. ?
One important factor of this theory is the idea that there is something that represents everyone and everything in the universe. The concept of personal event waves (PEWs) is just that. Every person has an event wave that signifies his/her life. No event wave, no existence. Add together all the PEWs for one period in time and an origin wave is formed, the sum of all PEWs.

4. TRAVEL TO THE PAST
Interfering with the past can have several consequences, the most regular being deviation from the NRS (normal reality stream), i.e. the creation of an ARS (alternate reality stream). There are three differing consequences of this interference, the result being dependant on the size of the ARS deviation. ?

A common effect of past interference was first observed by Mason, this prompted him to publish a paper on the subject. Mason's temporal analysis brought forward the discovery that minute or unimportant interference to the NRS results in temporary deviation of a short-term nature. ?

Within time the ARS will return to the NRS, merging back within the space-time continuum and eventually vanishing. The meaning of this discovery is that careful time travellers will not create any long-term deviations to the NRS.

The second consequence of travel to the past is that the interference creates a permanent ARS which diverges from the NRS. As more interference is created the local reality wave (LRW) will move steadily away from the norm. If this event happens to a large degree the history books could end up being 'rewritten'. This occurrence usually happens when multiple interference in one time zone reaches a threshold limit, the result being the splitting of the NRS to create an ARS which will not merge back into its origin stream.

The third consequence is a little less drastic than the above. In essence, the effect is that whatever actions are performed in the past, no change to the NRS will result as you are fulfilling fate. Effectively, you are in a time loop and your actions have already happened. This occurs when an individual attempts to change an event in the past when this event had created memory patterns for the individual concerned. This would mean that changing this event would result in memory change or loss. All events that have shaped your past and all living memory are included in this effect. The effect does not occur when an alteration is made to an event that an individual has been informed of.

Killing your mother before she gave birth to you would wipe your temporal signature. You would be erased from time.

All right. Now if you consider the circular (linear) theory of time travel and that every person has a PEW it would be possible to travel backward in time prior to your mother's birth or conception (which ever the killer prefers) and take the life of the grandmother. This would result in a ARS (alternate reality stream) in which the death of the your grandmother would present your grandfather with different life options. How might remarry some time later, fall into deep dispair and drink and possibly commit suicide or if your want to tilt in the direction of science fantasy, he studies up on quantum mechanics and invents a time machine to save his wife.

The website I accessed this information is: http://makemillions.bizland.com/tempor_displace.htm.

Keep in mind, I only quoted certain passages to help my agruement.

 

[Arez]

Re: The Grandmother Paradox

im new hello

now i dont know alot about time travel theories but in everyones life we all have choices dont we? now i have been told that we dont just do one choice we do both whenever we come to a different choice we go one way and another reality is made where we take the other choice now bear in mind this is only theory. now if you did travel back in time and killed your grandmother then that wuld be one of the choices she would of choosen sumthing which would of resulted in her being there and getting killed by whoever.

now that would be one of the paths she had taken so there would be another path where she didnt die and didnt meet your grandfather for another 5 years or so because of different events. now if you killed ur grandmother and traveled back in time you would just go back to the path where you are you.

with the theory of not being able to kill your grandmother because it may change the future, then you wouldnt be able to travel in time in the first place because you stepping out of the time machine or u killing a bug may change the future so really anything you do in the past could result in the death of your grandmother. so u wouldnt be allowed to travel back in time because u may affect any amount of different factors.

 

[mr_bumpkin]

Re: The Grandmother Paradox

What people forget about the grandfather/mother issue is that even less extreme circumstances apply. What if your parents had sex on a different day and a different sperm and egg combined? Then another person is born instead of you.

As for John Titor:

Titor's using alternate timelines as an excuse doesn't work. If he's here, then wouldn't there be a nearly identical John Titor arriving in his timeline from another as well? So, for practical purposes why does the use of an alternative timeline make any difference?

 

[darkbreed]

Re: The Grandmother Paradox

I believe that in general the timelines are connected to the traveler, and new ones are created around this traveler. So, if he goes back to his timeline, he would come to a timeline where only he arrives and not with alternate versions of himself, these alternate versions would arrive in their alternate timelines, no matter how similar to eachother.