The World

[sosuemetoo]

The World

Second part of my post:

I do not think it is a high price for unity. The majority of those tax dollars of yours which you are so worried about going as AID to third world countries are actually being consumed by that crazy president of yours;

Please provide the link that my president is certifiably crazy and that most of my tax dollars are going to third world countries. I request this with an open mind. I will change my mind if you are able to do so.

I am sure his 'war on terrorism' has taken more of your tax money in the past few years than any other tax input

The war on terrorism has taken some of my tax money. This money going out of my pocket I can accept. My country was attacked on 9/11. I don't expect any other country to protect my borders except my country's military.

, with more going into his 'Star Wars' missile protection schemes and undercover oil gambling.

I need a link on this, because I am unaware of my country doing any undercover oil gambling. If it has, then I would change my mind and be ashamed. The only undercover oil gambling I've heard of at this point is the Oil for Food Scandal currently under investigation.

So pull your country out of the UN and leave the people of the third world countries in the debt and mess your corporate businesses have put them in if you want a little more in yours and your husband's paycheck, but you would have much more in those paychecks, and I'm sure you'd sleep easier at night,

I thought our corporate business gave the third world countries opportunity and an ability to thrive on their own. Why is capitalism and working your way up out of poverty such a "nasty" concept? We work very hard for those paychecks, many Americans tithe to our church to help the poor and we are compassionate. It would just be nice when an American male drives home in the 12 year old family car home at night after working 60 hours a week and has a 1/3 of his paycheck taken out in taxes to hear the word "thank you for your help" As far as sleeping easy at night, many Americans have not since 9/11. Americans are worried at what tomorrow will bring, and feel helpless.

if you stay with the UN, and get rid of the president who shouldn't have got into office in the first place.

We have a democracy. Our president does not rule us. There is a process to pass law. We have a House of Representatives and a Senate. Even if we "got rid of our president" that many disagree with, this would not help. The election in 13 days will not miraculously change things. Please, if you all have a plan for world peace, post it. But please don't hate the members on this forum that are Americans, or Americans in general unless you have a better plan.

"Mom"

 

[pauli]

The World

Pauli,


QUOTE
The Muslims themselves came out of Arabia in about 670, C.E. and conquered vast amounts of the then Christian world in campaigns that make the Crusades look pretty tame. Within a very short time, they killed thousands and thousands of men and enslaved the women and children. At the time (7th century) the Christian church was in a decline and they were not able to respond to the Muslims forced colonization of their lands. It took about 400 to 500 years before there was any possible response from the Christian world to the mass killings that took place on their once held lands - lands btw that were not conquered by the Christians in war, but peacefully through prosetelyzation. It is also interesting to note that while Christians have apologized many, many times for the Crusades, the Muslims have never apologized - nor is it every likely for them to - for the mass killing campaigns that they waged in the 7th century.


Which religions land was being taken over is beyond the point. In my eyes, thousands of people died for 'belief without evidence', and they are still dying for it. And that is not on.

Hi Ralan,

I have been trying to make out exactly what you meant by this post because it can be read in two ways. #1. the thousands of people dying for it refers to people in the past (Christians) or, #2. the thousands of people dying for it refers to the people of the present (Muslims). I think you meant #2, so I will just try to clarify something:

The reason why I added the thing about the land's ownership in the late 7th century was to underscore a point. Many people take points in history and display them as "proofs" as to some perfidy that should not have been done; in this instance, the Crusades. They talk about the horror of the Crusades and how horrible it was that the Church allowed x and y, etc. But they don't talk about this point of history in context.

It reminds me of when I see war coverage coming from PBS or other news sources. The reporters show the dying, the suffering, the mourning and how horrible it all is - and it is. But, they don't show any of it in context. They show you these soldiers who have been called out to do this mission and those people on the other side who are dying. They show you the funeral of a man who has just been shot a few hours ago and the wailing mother and sisters. But, they never once mention that all of the scenes they just shot are only taking place in a one mile perimeter of that city. Instead, they leave you with the impression that the whole country is falling apart. Everyone everywhere is dying; it is all carnage and brutality. There is nothing but war - war, war, war, war, war. Everywhere you look is war. That is what happens when you take something out of context. And, similarly, you can do the same thing with historical events.

One of the things I don't appreciate about the way some people teach/remember historical events, is that they don't look at things in context. Now, granted, it is wise not to get stuck in history and be unable to forget the past. This is what a lot of people do - this is what the Jews can do about the Holocaust, it is what the blacks can do about slavery. (At least in America) There comes a time when you have to let things go and move on. However, and I emphasize this word very carefully, while it is a good thing to move beyond grudges, it is not a smart thing to start redefining history to suit the ends of the perpetrator and give them a "Get out of jail Free" card.

My problem with the Islamic world is that I don't see a lot of people looking into the past and trying to come to terms with the shadow that they have thrown out upon the world. I don't see any repentance. Instead, I see people who only point out where we in the West have harmed them. I only see the grudges that they refuse to give up. OBL chose 9-11 for a reason. I believe it was September 11, 1683, when the Muslims lost a battle against a large Christian city and that was the turning point for their expansion into Europe. After that, the Islamic world took a tumble into a stagnation that they are still suffering from. OBL chose that date because he could never forget the humiliation of losing that battle. My G-d! What a memory for keeping a grudge! They haven't forgotten the Crusades. They are angry about colonization that took place in the late 1800's with Napoleon. These people never forgive. That is a HUGE problem with me. Instead, they play the victim card. Oh, poor us. We are living in backwater 3rd world countries - and it's all YOUR FAULT! You in the West! You kept us from expanding and taking over. It is your fault we are in trouble. And, like idiots, we enable them in their victim mentality. "Yes, you are right! It is us. Mea culpa, mea culpa!"

Out of guilt, we feed that monster. We give them allowances for their barbarisms. We know they cut off peoples heads, hands and feet as part of their judicial system - but hey, who are we to judge! We aren't so forgiving, however, of those who do capital punishment in the West because it is "barbaric." In short, we have a terrible case of double standards. In our condescention, we tell the Muslims, "Oh well, I understand. You can't help yourself. You just had to blow up that bus of children. You had to kill those old people in the rest home. You had no choice but to take those planes and ram them into the twin towers. It is beyond you. You just can't help it." That is as racist as not giving them places to stay because they are Muslim. Or spitting at them as they pass in the street. It is a subtle form of racism that white people tend to do to other races and it is just as nasty as slapping that person on the face.

I say, let us remember history. But let us remember it accurately. Let's not give a pass on either side and just deal with it. "You cannot change what you don't acknowledge." And we are not doing anyone else a favor by not being honest and talking about what really happened in history. All of us have a bad case of the guilts - it comes from doing bad things and then getting called on it. Germany had their Hitler. Japan had its Emperor worship cult. America has its Indian Reservations. Cambodia had its killing fields. China/Tibet. Let's not give anyone a "Get out of Jail Free pass." We all need to acknowledge the past and deal with it.

 

[Unintentional]

The World

In my "Replying to The World", I would say the most important weopon you can have on your side is the truth. If someone tells you something that makes you disagree with, first do a little research and see if it is the truth. If it is, deal with it; if not you can educate the one who misinformed you. Truth is love and love is truth.

 

[StarLord]

The World

Good point and post. How would one know if several sources of that "truth" were mistaken? We can always find a con to our pro. Which one would be right?

 

[Ralan]

The World

To Pyro and Mom;

Ralan, the reason we also want to pull out of the United Nations, is because they are, a threat to our government's plans. The United Nations, keeps you European Nations strong, hell, you guys formed the European Union, the United States, is not apart of that.

The United Nations protects us? Are you kidding me? Did you see how easily it was to just bypass them? We did it with Iraq, the only reason were not in Iran yet, is because it's election year. Plus Ralan, countries fear us, they want to be aligned with us, notice, my \"American Cockiness\" comes out, but it is true, we intimidate countries.

IMO the UN does not have to watch over any country. Each country has their own laws. In the United States, we have the Constitution. We broke away from England over 200 years ago to rid ourselves from tyranny. We only hope the same for other countries. We want them to have the freedom of speech. We want them to be prosperous. We do not wish harm, only good. The UN was not established to intervene on free countries, but to intervene on those suffering under dictatorships. The UN is not protecting America. I'm looking out my backyard and I do not see any employees of the UN protecting me. This is my opinion.

Pyro, I'm sure most Americans would agree that a threat to your government's plans at present is not neccessarily a bad thing.

The UN protects the US, along with the rest of the West, by showing the 'terrorist' countries in the East that their enemies are united. Would we be so keen to invade Iraq if we knew that Afghanistan, Iran and Jordan would step right in to defend their ally? You get one big terrorist attack and think your allies in the UN are not protecting you. The truth is, without the united strength of the UN threatening anyone singling out a contingent UN country, the US, along with the rest of us, would be plagued by these attacks; protection comes in many forms.

Iraq did not attack the US. Afghanistan did not attack the US. Terrorists based in these countries attacked the US. Terrorists who probably had the intention all along of intimidating your government into attacking those countries. The terrorists do not care if you 'liberate' the people of Iraq or Afghanistan. You cannot stay there forever while your own country struggles under the accusing finger of the rest of the world. Soon you will be forced to pull back out of the East. Then the terrorist leaders will settle again, and nothing will have changed. The world does not work in the simple ways that George Bush likes to think it does. 'Liberation' is not taken an army into the country and killing military and civilians alike until the problems go away. True liberation is what, even as it goes out into the East, the United States needs to do to itself. The people of America are suffering while the government plays its power games, and as the world's dislike of the US festers before its pompousity, it grows more and more likely that you will find the UN on your doorstep to liberate you.

I thought our corporate business gave the third world countries opportunity and an ability to thrive on their own. Why is capitalism and working your way up out of poverty such a \"nasty\" concept? We work very hard for those paychecks, many Americans tithe to our church to help the poor and we are compassionate. It would just be nice when an American male drives home in the 12 year old family car home at night after working 60 hours a week and has a 1/3 of his paycheck taken out in taxes to hear the word \"thank you for your help\" As far as sleeping easy at night, many Americans have not since 9/11. Americans are worried at what tomorrow will bring, and feel helpless.

In the eighties and nineties American corporacy drove the third world back into the dirt; I study this at school, its not a personal opinion. These countries are now struggling to recover from the debt 'democratic business' has inflicted on them, amidst a backdrop of war and poverty; the US returning to 'liberate' them.

Capitalism means survival of the fittest; social Darwinism. It means 5% of the population hoarding 95% of the wealth. It means a country out of control, because when the people are given that kind of freedom, the quick thinkers snatch it up, and everyone else loses it before they have it. Sure, it is nice to know that capitalism is treating the US just fine, but US capitalism is destroying the third world. Giving to the Church helps the Church. Giving to the poor themselves is what really helps the poor. Just to draw on previous points to support what I said in the last post, 'trading' with the third world is what drove them down in the first place, I still don't see how the comparitively small UN tax can be worse than paying out a large chunk in the name of this 'liberation' power game, and the Bush family has been dodgy dealing with oil for decades. I strongly doubt that becoming president has encouraged young Dubya to end that tradition. I could give you a link, but what real truth can the internet give you? Research yourself if you feel the need.

 

[Ralan]

The World

We have a democracy. Our president does not rule us. There is a process to pass law. We have a House of Representatives and a Senate. Even if we \"got rid of our president\" that many disagree with, this would not help. The election in 13 days will not miraculously change things. Please, if you all have a plan for world peace, post it. But please don't hate the members on this forum that are Americans, or Americans in general unless you have a better plan.

I am horrified that you consider me to have displayed that view. I have always taken care to make sure people understand that the common people of any country come under the same category in my eyes. They are the innocents; sometimes they are ignorant, and maybe given the chance they would become the guilty, but as they are they are innocents and in the end it means nothing if they come from the United States or Iraq. If I have a problem with America, it is because of its government and only its government. Its culture I may disagree with, but Americans grow up in this culture, they do not choose it, and in any case I would never judge someone by their culture in the first place.

Nothing ever miraculously changes just like that. Little steps have to be made of long years before changes can begin. The important thing is not to just give up hope and say "why should we drop Bush, it won't change anything". Drop Bush, and you get Kerry. Whatever Kerry is like, he is not Bush, and after Bush's four horrific years in office Kerry at least deserves a chance to show he is a better man. After Kerry, vote for the lesser of the two evils again, and again, and again. Do not vote for the president who will go out and 'liberate' people. Vote for the president who can at least help to drag your country out of the mess it is getting into. In this seeming small way, America will begin to change, and slowly the united nations of the world will begin to forgive you, and accept you back into the alliance you are slowly disassociating with.

 

[Ralan]

The World

Pauli, I meant that it is incredibly unfair that such an immaterial and opinionated thing as religion should be the cause of so much suffering and death.

 

[StarLord]

The World

It has kept folks busy for the last 2 to 3 thousand years. Isn't that sad? What's even more sad, if you boiled down each religion for a fortnight and a day, the same precious diamonds of truth would appear with the prerequisite differences in facets. IMHO it starts with the "Battle of the Messengers" as in which prophet was the Right one. That is where the first stones got tossed back and forth.

The reality is Who Cares? If you have a religion that works for you stay with it. If not go shopping and find one that works. As long as they don't try to convince you that God needs money, your on the right path for you.

Simplicity like this staggers the mind of those that fight to confuse the issue and clamor that they have the only path to enlightenment. NO ONE has a patent to being saved by Spirit.

So, how could one path claim superiority over another path?

 

[sosuemetoo]

The World

Originally posted by Ralan@Oct 21 2004, 05:15 PM
I am horrified that you consider me to have displayed that view.

Ralan,

You're right. I was harsh. I apologize and I hope there are no hurt feelings.

"Mom"

 

[PyRo99]

The World

Right-Wing Side coming out.

If it goes as your saying Ralan, your assuming France And Germany would "team up" to help us. Try having Putin, whom said "A defeat for Bush, is a victory for terrorists". Hmm, i think Russia would veto anything that the other countries propose.

We Americans, can defend our country well. Give us some time, we broke away from Britian. Who is to say that we will not dissent from our own government again?