US civil war

[Darkwolf]

US civil war

Determined to deal aggressively with the terrorists they expected to capture, the officials bypassed the federal courts and their constitutional guarantees, giving the military the authority to detain foreign suspects

While this is a disturbing trend, the operative word is forign. We treated German and Japanese sabatuers the same way during the second world war. The military has a duty to deal with forign incursions into the homeland that are intended to do us harm. We captured and exicuted quite a few spies during the war without anyone hearing about it. This was not a constitutional violation beacause they were forign spies caught during wartime. Citizens caught doing the same thing however were given full jury trials just like anyone else. I am concerned that that that won't be the case this time, but other than rumors about patriot three, I haven't heard about the government quite crossing the line yet. Still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

 

[Timmy G]

US civil war

I haven't heard about the government quite crossing the line yet. Still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

US Supreme Court hears due process requests of 2 US citizens held without charges. Civil and human rights organizations file briefs and demonstrate, challenging president's authority over ?enemy combatants?.

Here's a snip from the article, which can be found here in its entirety: Case Challenges Detention of US Citizens as 'Enemy Combatants'
"If the government?s position were adopted by this Court, a U.S. citizen who is falsely or inaccurately accused could be detained indefinitely, without effective access to counsel to test the basis for his detention in a habeas corpus proceeding or, indeed, in any judicial proceeding. Such power is fundamentally incompatible with the constitutional guarantee of due process, with the role constitutionally assigned to the courts in the protection of individual rights, and with the rule of law itself."

Apr 28 - The US Supreme Court heard arguments today over the two cases brought on behalf of American citizens petitioning for their right to a trial. Yaser Esam Hamdi and Jos? Padilla have both been held without charges in military prison for over two years without access to US courts.

I personally believe the government did cross the line with those two American Citizens in the aftermath of 9/11. Certainly a PRO argument would be that these people, although they are citizens of the US, are foreigners in their own right. their parents are from waring countries, etc. etc. etc. - the CON would be that "It Just Doesn't Matter". I say that if you are a US citizen, you are protected under the Constitution, period. Once this happened to these two guys, it can happen to any of us... and that certainly includes you or me It stinks and I don't like it.

Just like the time I read in the newspaper that (at least in Illinois) you are not allowed a jury trial, anymore - for any crime that is punishable by 6 months or less. That stank very badly, and nobody said a word about it.

Do you hear it... listen closely.. chip... chip... chip... chip... chip... you know what that is? It is the sound of our government slowly chipping away the foundation that IS our RIGHTS.

 

[Darkwolf]

US civil war

Apr 28 - The US Supreme Court heard arguments today over the two cases brought on behalf of American citizens petitioning for their right to a trial. Yaser Esam Hamdi and Jos? Padilla have both been held without charges in military prison for over two years without access to US courts.

Hmm, I don't believe I actually forgot about that. Yeagh, thats definatly over the line, way over. Has that one been decided yet? I don't see how the court could possibly not blow it out of the water. They have done a fairly good job so far, and thats what they're for.
What worries me is that the court could be ignored. It woulden't be the first time. Clinton's BATF cronies ignored a couple of rulings on the firearms front, and the people they nailed are still in jail. It also worries me that the next president is going to get to nominate at least three justices. Either we'll get radical lefties, or Theocrats. Take your pick.

BTW seems like an awfully convienient time for Rindquist to get....... Naah. coulden't be.
Phil

 

[Judge Bean]

US civil war

Originally posted by Darkwolf@Oct 26 2004, 04:03 AM

Determined to deal aggressively with the terrorists they expected to capture, the officials bypassed the federal courts and their constitutional guarantees, giving the military the authority to detain foreign suspects

While this is a disturbing trend, the operative word is forign. We treated German and Japanese sabatuers the same way during the second world war. The military has a duty to deal with forign incursions into the homeland that are intended to do us harm. We captured and exicuted quite a few spies during the war without anyone hearing about it. This was not a constitutional violation beacause they were forign spies caught during wartime. Citizens caught doing the same thing however were given full jury trials just like anyone else. I am concerned that that that won't be the case this time, but other than rumors about patriot three, I haven't heard about the government quite crossing the line yet. Still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

​

In fact, there is no legal impediment to the president ordering the military to use its discretion to mass-arrest anyone in a specified region. There is no distinction between citizen and foreignor, as we learned when 90,000 citizens were put into concentration camps in 1942. Such distinctions are made throughout the laws dealing with enemy aliens and their property, but they can be dispensed with in the Oval Office with a stroke of the pen.

 

[Judge Bean]

US civil war

Originally posted by Darkwolf@Oct 26 2004, 08:36 AM

Apr 28 - The US Supreme Court heard arguments today over the two cases brought on behalf of American citizens petitioning for their right to a trial. Yaser Esam Hamdi and Jos? Padilla have both been held without charges in military prison for over two years without access to US courts.

Hmm, I don't believe I actually forgot about that. Yeagh, thats definatly over the line, way over. Has that one been decided yet? I don't see how the court could possibly not blow it out of the water. They have done a fairly good job so far, and thats what they're for.
What worries me is that the court could be ignored. It woulden't be the first time. Clinton's BATF cronies ignored a couple of rulings on the firearms front, and the people they nailed are still in jail. It also worries me that the next president is going to get to nominate at least three justices. Either we'll get radical lefties, or Theocrats. Take your pick.

BTW seems like an awfully convienient time for Rindquist to get....... Naah. coulden't be.
Phil

​

The Supreme Court, as it has in the past few years when it comes to decisions involving important interpretations of the Constitution, has backed off from the cases in substance, allowing the lower courts and the military to decide the appropriate due process. Once again, hapless inmates in this situation have nothing but the Writ of Habeas Corpus, which the president can suspend in a time of national emergency.

The Court did the same thing with the Second Amendment in the Silveira case last year; left the lower courts split between a fundamental meaning of the Constitution. Does the Amendment guarantee the individual the right to keep and bear arms? California, No. Texas, Yes. Two enormous federal circuits, incorporating the No into places like Elko, Nevada, and San Diego, California; and the Yes into the Southwest between the Rio Grande and New Orleans; both crying out for a last word on what the Framers considered the keystone Amendment.

Rehnquist, aged and just diagnosed with thyroid cancer, has taken a post as a professor in Tucson. When he finally goes, he will have damaged the Court and the Constitution very nearly beyond repair. I don't think anyone has ever written more Supreme Court opinions, no single one of which expands civil rights or protects the citizen against corporations or the government. Whoever replaces him will look sweet and beautiful to my eyes.

 

[Darkwolf]

US civil war

Like us, the law enforcement grunts, non officer types, are going to be stuck in the middle if it ever comes to the point of rediculous orders againts the citizens rights enmasse. Do we blame them for following orders? Sure, someone, some where is going to have to put their foot down and say no, but where along that chain will that happen?

Don't ever say it can't get worse Paul. I can think of a couple of people both right and left who would be worse than him.
Phil

 

[Judge Bean]

US civil war

Originally posted by Darkwolf@Oct 26 2004, 10:54 PM

Like us, the law enforcement grunts, non officer types, are going to be stuck in the middle if it ever comes to the point of rediculous orders againts the citizens rights enmasse. Do we blame them for following orders? Sure, someone, some where is going to have to put their foot down and say no, but where along that chain will that happen?

Don't ever say it can't get worse Paul. I can think of a couple of people both right and left who would be worse than him.
Phil

​

I don't follow this.

What I'm wondering these days is whether it can get better, or if it's too late. I don't think that the Corporations are going to permit Bush to lose.

 

[Darkwolf]

US civil war

I don't follow this.

What I'm wondering these days is whether it can get better, or if it's too late. I don't think that the Corporations are going to permit Bush to lose.

--------------------
Sorry, I used the wrong quote there. I was referring to Rindquist. I've heard the democrats mention Schumer as a potential replacement. Goodbye second amendment if that happens.

I think some of the corperations back Bush, but big government backs Kerry, and they run the election process. What we're going to have is both sides caught red handed cheating like Bill Clinton in a Bordello.
Phil

 

[Judge Bean]

US civil war

Originally posted by Darkwolf@Oct 27 2004, 09:19 PM

I don't follow this.

What I'm wondering these days is whether it can get better, or if it's too late. I don't think that the Corporations are going to permit Bush to lose.

--------------------
Sorry, I used the wrong quote there. I was referring to Rindquist. I've heard the democrats mention Schumer as a potential replacement. Goodbye second amendment if that happens.

I think some of the corperations back Bush, but big government backs Kerry, and they run the election process. What we're going to have is both sides caught red handed cheating like Bill Clinton in a Bordello.
Phil

​

They're already cheating, both sides. Neither of them trusts the electoral process anymore-- mostly due to the 2000 election fiasco. When one important element of the Constitutional process fails, the rest begins to wobble.

A stone temple can become before your eyes a house of cards.

 

[dissdnt]

US civil war

Im pretty impressed with everyone on this forum, most of you seem very informed and well read. I have a few points i wanted to make about a possible civil war in America.

First off, it's not possible in this day and age. I can only say that the only way there could be such civil unrest would be a financial break down unlike anyone has seen.

I've read recent articles about the petro dollar possibly moving off the US standard for the Euro, if this happens, it's possible our monetary system could collapse.

It is also possible that the theory of "Peak Oil" is a reality and could be the reasons for the seemingy carefree manor in which our current admin conducts itself. Ie to secure area's and make them US friendly to gain control of oil production.

Financial collapse coupled with another terrorist attack, staged or real, or as John has stated, which result in multiple Waco type events, then it seems very probable that a civil war could occur. With the current split 50/50 with this election tuesday, and the law suits are already flying, i think we are going to see some real legitimacy issues with whoever is decided to win.

Im really torn about this admin and what they are doing. But it is possible they are doing some horrible dirty work that, as they see it, is the only way to resolve an upcoming financial crisis. If they pull it off it's possible to keep it at bay another 50 years. If they fail civil war.