JREF - Million Dollar Challenge

[cmac]

Re: JREF - Million Dollar Challenge

I also believe that it's quite possible paranormal stuff exists, but I think the JREF gets far more crackpots trying to just get the million bucks than they do anyone who truly has paranormal abilities. Just because he exposes alot of crackpots for what they truly are doesn't lead me to believe the test is intentionally rigged. It's ridiculous and almost a state of denial to not acknowledge how many snake oil salesman and crackpots there truly are. I don't think the JREF test is rigged by default because it exposes them.

Yeah, I agree there are some serious crackpots, especially when a million bucks is on the line, that will bring out all sorts. The people I was speaking of, are those who can likely seriously show something that Mr. Randi would have to fork up the million dollars for, and they spoke out that Randi's expectations were impossible to meet, he was just being ridiculous. I don't even remember who they were, don't really care. I don't have time to deal with someone like James Randi as closed minded as he is in my point of view. What little I've been able to stand to watch of him on TV, he acts horribly, and makes a joke of everything. I seriously don't think he would give someone a chance to win the money. But as long as he can sit back and say, "See, no one can do it." Then he gets a good laugh, and so do all of his sheep followers.

I'm sure he is a great illusionist and magician. And I understand why he thinks everything is as he sees it. But it is not. Someday people will wake up to this. It won't be James Randi that will though. He and Shermer wouldn't believe something if it stared them in the face.

 

[cmac]

Re: JREF - Million Dollar Challenge

I would have to agree with Jaspermoon's assessments of Mr. Randi above. Those statements sound like they came straight from the horses mouth to me. I can get with he wants to see something in person, we would all like to, but to throw everything out of the realm of possibility because it doesn't jive with your belief system is just being closed minded, I don't know any other way to see it than that. So if something doesn't happen in his presence or one of his cronies, then it doesn't exist. Huh, what a broad thinker he is. Can you be much more narrow minded? I think it is pretty obvious that we've always had these non-believer types, that say things can't be, and then before long those things become common knowledge, people just take them for granted. Just another in the cycles of life I guess.

I would like to see this illusionist pull off serious psi abilities. So I guess because the government used Remote Viewing for years, and it was successful, it doesn't exist, and isn't possible, because James Randi didn't see it? Tons of people have come out and spoken about the governments involvement with psi abilities and studies. I'm sure Randi turns a cold shoulder to these like anything else he doesn't want to believe. It's always funny how these guys don't want to really look at the evidence or seemingly want to listen to people who have been involved in these things. They like pick and choose what they look at and what they don't which generally involves looking at the cases that aren't substantial. Shermer always talks like he's read this and he's read that, but when questioned about it, it is obvious that he hasn't read it, or just skimmed it. His rationals for things are so closed minded it is hilarious. I watch him for the comic relief. Some of his explanations are so nuts, he should have been playing J. Allen Hynek in the early days when describing "Swamp gas" and the like. I love watching Shermer, Bill Nye the "science guy", and these other science stiffs get put in their place on Larry King live. Those are truly funny, far funnier than Randi, and his childish comedy. Bill Nye didn't want to look at any evidence, just like most of them don't, they are convinced, what's the use?

 

[Harte]

Re: JREF - Million Dollar Challenge

Well, good points guys, Harte and Keroscene. Well, I've heard that around a handful of people who claimed they tried to take up ol' Randi on his contest, according to them were met with ridiculous circumstances. I'll take these people's word for it, they said it was a joke to try to take him up on his offer, so no one bothers after a while I assume.

Your assumption would then be wrong.

JREF lists all the applicants at the site you decided not to go read.

People still, even with all of Einsteins promotion to almost god like status today, still question his theories, which there is likely nothing wrong with questioning. I'm certain that in the early days he was questioned even more and likely scoffed at my most due to it being so beyond their current personal perception. I really don't think that even the greatest minds had it all figured out, and my personal belief is that anyone that thinks that they do or we do, is kidding themselves.

Anyone that knows anything about science knows that Einstein is certainly wrong.

Such a person also knows, however, that Einstein's theories provide the closest model to observed reality that we today possess.

The ulitmate fate of any scientific theory is falsification. The better ones simply take somewhat longer to falsify. Usually, that requires a substantial advance in the technology of measurement and nothing more.

But it is hard to see past our own personal perception, especially if it feels good to think we have no need to do so. It seems that most of Tesla's ideas were scoffed at, his ideas were taken and profited by, from many people. It is debateable what their motive was, but likely it was fame and fortune, and it seems that profits was the name of the game. Tesla's greatest accomplishments likely never saw the light of day, and probably still haven't.

There can be no claim of "greatest accomplishment" if the accomplishment was never made.

Is there really any doubt today that Tesla was virtually wiped from our consciousness? Most people don't even know who he is, never heard of him. Doesn't seem he is promoted in our school textbooks, then to find out the man was inventing tons of stuff, that those same textbooks give credit to others for.

That's primarily because Edison successfully purloined the idea for alternating current as house electricity - an idea he initially opposed.
On the other hand, you've surely heard of the stereotype of the "mad scientist?" That phrase referred originally to Tesla, no kidding.

I just don't see how people expect us to advance ourselves much, with a fairly closed mind. But, to each his own

Through hard work. One must first learn how the real world operates (physics.) You can't simply have an "open mind." Such a thing requires not one whit of knowledge.

Electromagnets don't work because we wish them to work, for example.

A lot was going on in my personal life, that I wished to pass off as "weird", or "coincidence", or "that's just not possible", until I expanded my awareness and paid true attention to what was going on. At some point it got to such a regularity of it happening to where it becomes obvious, that it "is" happening. When you learn to pay attention to it, it's not just a now and then occurence. Funny, then to find out it is happening to millions of others, yet still according to what could be deemed "the public view", it isn't possible. Well, tell that to the millions that live it in their lives over the years.

Could I, or others "prove" it to James Randi? I seriously doubt it, not because it doesn't happen, just as these people are saying that it does, but likely because Randi, would choose to still not believe it.

The entire reason for the million dollar challenge is for people that claim to have an "ability" to be given an opportunity to demonstrate that ability. Your story about "weird stuff" that happened to you does not qualify, which you would know if you had gone to the site (as I suggested) and made some tiny effort to educate yourself about the subject before you pontificated (once again) upon it.


Harte

 

[cmac]

Re: JREF - Million Dollar Challenge

Well, once again people don't wish to look at what they don't believe, what's the use right? It can't exist because you don't believe it. You are just proving that more and more to me by your statements. There are likely millions of people who have things happen, those that Randi and the like wish not to look at, and from what I've heard, make it ridiculous to even attempt it. Because they don't believe it, then it can't happen, so why look at it. And if you can't reproduce it on demand, then it can't happen. Pretty narrow minded.

If you seriously think Randi is going to take a chance on forking up one million dollars, you might want to rethink that. And this is exactly what these people have talked about when they contacted him. I wouldn't doubt one bit that them contacting him was never even reported in the first place. If I ran down these people's names, I'm pretty certain there would be no listing of them on this registrar.

Whether you and Randi want to believe that more goes on than has been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, many of these things do occur. I'm not alone in the things that I've experienced, not by a longshot. I tried to rationalize them away, you just can't, I was a very logical thinker, I was very conditioned to the traditional belief system. I tried for years of my life to explain them away. They continue to happen, over and over. I don't know how to control them, and show them on demand, but it doesn't mean they don't occur. I know that people who have witnessed these events, know they are very real. They don't understand them, but they know they are very real.

I'm not surprised that Randi and JREF have set their little contest up so that none of these types of things can possibly be considered. Just as I've felt, it isn't worth my time to check into much. It is obvious to me what Randi is all about. And this topic has only proven to me more and more that the statements made by people who likely could have and should have won the million dollars weren't even provided an ounce of chance to do so. What a surprise. If people are brave enough to make a statement in front of millions of people that they contacted Randi, and his requirements were ridiculous, then that likely is the case. And others are saying the very same thing. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it likely is a duck. This topic only goes to show this even more.

I appreciate your comments Harte, and I'm glad that Randi has a contest like this, it could be such a great thing, it is just too bad that his skepticism gets in the way of true discovery. Well discovery to the skeptics, becoming common knowledge to the public. Well at least the black projects and the governments know the value of psi related things, cause they seem to be full of these projects over the years, even though to the skeptics, they aren't real. I guess all of the people claiming to have worked with the government in programs dealing with Remote viewing and Psi related areas, are just making it all up. Since it obviously isn't possible according to James Randi. Is remote viewing 100% accurate, are psi related things 100%, likely no, but if something happens, it is real, when there is no logical or rational explanation to satisfy all naysayers, but something is happening, and is very real, then it exists. Everything in this world can't be touched, smelled, tasted, or measured, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There is more to this world that the physical, hopefully science will catch up someday.

If you are going to be truly open to things, then you don't make the rules so stringent that almost nothing qualifies to be looked at. That makes it a joke to me, and apparently to a lot of people. I get that there are crackpots, there are people who claim things for whatever reason, of course those happen, they happen in anything. I respect that science is the best way, I totally get that, but it is missing out on a lot of real phenomena. Fortunately many of the governments of the world are not and many of the people know what is going on. Satisfying Randi and JREF, I doubt that will happen any time soon, especially with 1 million dollars on the line.

 

[Harte]

Re: JREF - Million Dollar Challenge

Well, once again people don't wish to look at what they don't believe, what's the use right? It can't exist because you don't believe it. You are just proving that more and more to me by your statements. There are likely millions of people who have things happen, those that Randi and the like wish not to look at, and from what I've heard, make it ridiculous to even attempt it. Because they don't believe it, then it can't happen, so why look at it. And if you can't reproduce it on demand, then it can't happen. Pretty narrow minded.

Talk about narrow-minded!

If you seriously think Randi is going to take a chance on forking up one million dollars, you might want to rethink that. And this is exactly what these people have talked about when they contacted him. I wouldn't doubt one bit that them contacting him was never even reported in the first place. If I ran down these people's names, I'm pretty certain there would be no listing of them on this registrar.

You refuse to even read the contest rules, yet you have the nerve to call someone else narrow minded?

I've stated several times here that Randi is not even involved in the testing - not in any way. Not in judging, not in selecting, not in designing the tests, not in refusing or accepting any applicant.

What does "Randi has no involvement in the million dollar challenge" mean to you?

As for the money, it is through an insurance policy/endownment that JREF built up through donations over several years. Not one penny would come from Randi or JREF, granting the reward wouldn't cost Randi or JREF a single penny.

You'd know this if you would only operate on (and form your opions on) actual fact instead of some "feeling" you claim to have about what "Randi would probably do" or what he would not "do," in your mind.

I'm not surprised that Randi and JREF have set their little contest up so that none of these types of things can possibly be considered. Just as I've felt, it isn't worth my time to check into much. It is obvious to me what Randi is all about.

Care to elaborate on exactly how a reward could possibly be granted for a "story" that you have that you can tell Randi?

I mean, are you saying that whoever comes up with the best tale deserves the reward?

Try the Pulitzer. They have a hefty reward for creative writing.

If people are brave enough to make a statement in front of millions of people that they contacted Randi, and his requirements were ridiculous, then that likely is the case. And others are saying the very same thing. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it likely is a duck. This topic only goes to show this even more.

I see. Isn't it soooo comfortable living in your head instead of facing reality?

Again, read the rules for yourself. Read the claims of some of the "gifted" con artists that have been accepted for the challenge.

Otherwise, you're just blowing hot air. And not out of your mouth.

Harte

 

[Keroscene]

Re: JREF - Million Dollar Challenge

That's primarily because Edison successfully purloined the idea for alternating current as house electricity - an idea he initially opposed.
On the other hand, you've surely heard of the stereotype of the "mad scientist?" That phrase referred originally to Tesla, no kidding.

I thought Edison electrocuted an elephant at the state fair or something which if I remember was to demonstrate the deadliness of one of the currents. Anyways, they were all "mad scientists". He wasn't anymore of an evil mad scientist than the rest.

 

[cmac]

Re: JREF - Million Dollar Challenge

I've seen and heard numerous people laugh about this JREF thing, and about Randi. It is like a running joke. Yes, they apparently contacted Randi himself, and he was scoffing at them and laughing about it. Am I surprised by that, no. After seeing the way that Randi acts on TV, it should be expected.

I was a big time skeptic at one time, but when things happen in your life and to other people in the same manner, something is going on. Heck I try to still be skeptical of these things, even though they are shown to me day after day. "Living in your head"? Yeah, when things are shown to be true over and over, I'm living in my head. Come on, man. I tried for years and years to tell myself they can't be real, but they are real. And then, guess what a ton of other people have the same things happen. And our own government studies this phenomena and uses it. I don't think that is just living in my mind, as you put it. I'm not avoiding reality, I'm trying to embrace it, not make it fit into the current perceptions. I guess in your world, I should just act like it doesn't exist and tell myself it's all in my mind, it's not real. Nevermind the fact that these things happen pretty much everyday, and other people experience this as well. Yeah, why shouldn't I just live in complete denial of something? Seriously? No, I choose to find the answers, the real answers, not what someone's convenient answer is, "That's impossible."

It seems that people try to set something up, with Randi, or JREF and they talk about some impossible requirements to win the money. I continue to hear people interviewed being told, "You should contact James Randi". Then they say, I did and he laughed about it, and made some ridiculous requirements up, that were nearly impossible to meet. Where there is smoke there is fire brother. That's what I'm trying to say. I'm not living in my head, these statements were made, and expressed by people. And seem to continue to be made as time slides by. It's not always what the black and white says, the proof is in the pudding, anything can be said in their "requirements" but how someone is dealt with in person or on the phone can be much different, and seems to be from what people have said about their encounters having to do with this contest.

I believe what you are saying Harte, about the contest rules and such. I also believe that people with legitimate claims have been scoffed at and just as they say, the requirements layed out to them were outrageous. Randi seems to make a mockery of anything that he doesn't believe, and shows this in his TV appearances. I know he is an entertainer. But skeptics have a tendancy to laugh about things they don't feel are possible.

Nobody said anything about telling Randi a "story" and expecting the money. Or the best tale winning money. A "Pulitzer", nice one. I don't recall anyone saying anything about winning the million by telling a "story". I'm talking about people contacting them with their claims, and getting really no where with their attempt. That is what the people said, and it seems to be becoming more common. I guess if they are about to stop the contest, they only have to dodge people a little longer. Which is a great question right there, Why are they stopping the contest? Is somebody getting worried? JasperMoon commented after speaking with Randi, "but his answer came back like he wasn't going to believe anything even if it was staring him in the face and bit him in the arse." From what I've seen of Randi, that statement sounds about right, and why this contest is a running joke with people. But, I guess I'm just out on a limb and living in my head, as you would choose to believe.

 

[Num7]

Re: JREF - Million Dollar Challenge

I've been watching videos and reading about that guy for a pretty long time. ...Mr Randi looks like he's talking to himself in the mirror in these videos. "I think, I believe, I, I, I" that's all you can get out of him: he knows, he's been there, done that, he's right, period, there's no maybe, it's his way, the end. I knew a bunch of people like him in real life: they constandtly need to show other people how right they are about everything.

I'm still able to say that a whole lot of people are just showing up there at the challenge with no special paranormal skills at all, but yet, he makes fun of them and shows how much sense he makes. There's no way someone could convince this guy of whatever, even if you flat out read his mind straight to his face, he'd turn it into a joke, which is what I think his contest is, a joke.

Here are a few videos I just watched again. I don't like the way he makes fun of the guy in the one below, starting at around 4:50, how arrogant he is.

This guy is a clever talker but he makes no sense at all. He only knows... so what ?

 

[cmac]

Re: JREF - Million Dollar Challenge

Well, as Harte insisted I went to the JREF site and read their "rules" for the challenge application. Actually I was surprised a bit, I was giving the skeptics a little too much credit it seems. I thought that in print, black and white, they could pull this off better than this. This thing is ripe for corruption. Everyone should check this thing out and be the judge for themselves. I think it is pretty self explanatory really. And this is just the black and white print as I was pointing out in earlier posts. No telling the ridicule and road blocks people face along the way, this is just the application process, and it has plenty of hoops to jump through.

Here is the link: http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html

 

[cmac]

Re: JREF - Million Dollar Challenge

Well, now that you've read the application process for this "contest". I would like to go over some things that caught my eye. This thing is ripe for corruption.

"Since claims vary greatly in character and scope, specific rules must be formulated for each applicant. " Huh, changing the rules seems to be ok for the JREF people, "specific" rules for each applicant. Okay, nothing too big here.

"All applicants must agree to the rules set forth herein before any formal agreement can be entered into." So you have to follow their guidelines completely, or you cannot be even considered to be given the opportunity to prove your claim. huh, I thought you were supposed to be able to help set up the guidelines. Okay, still nothing huge here, but building a pattern.

"Applicant will declare agreement by signing this form where indicated before a notary public and returning the form to the James Randi Educational Foundation. " JREF - James Randi Educational Foundation

"All tests must be designed in such a way that the results are self-evident, so that no judging or voting process is required." Self-evident, huh, seems more than a little subjective. Yeah, never mind a judging by your peers, a democratic vote, so who does decide? Let me guess, someone who is a member of JREF.

"This offer is administered by the JREF, and no one may negotiate or make any changes, except as set forth in writing by James Randi (JR). All correspondence must be written, and will be answered, in English only, except that properly-prepared translations into English accompanied by certification of the qualifications of the translator, will be accepted. Upon properly completing this document and agreeing upon the test protocol, applicant will receive the application back, signed by JR. At that point, the applicant becomes eligible for the preliminary test, which, if successful, will result in the formal test." except as set forth in writing by James Randi (JR) I thought Harte said that James Randi had nothing to do with this contest, this has JR (James Randi) written all over it. The freaking JREF is named after the guy for crying out loud.

Originally Posted by Harte
I've stated several times here that Randi is not even involved in the testing - not in any way. Not in judging, not in selecting, not in designing the tests, not in refusing or accepting any applicant.

What does "Randi has no involvement in the million dollar challenge" mean to you?

What did the people that I talked about in earlier posts say? That they spoke directly to Randi about applying to the contest. So I guess he does have a lot to do with this process, what a surprise. Well, in print it doesn’t state that Randi makes up the requirements for each applicant, there is no way to know for certain that he isn’t directly involved in the testing protocol.

"I, James Randi, through the JREF, will pay US$1,000,000 [One Million Dollars/US] to any person who can demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability under satisfactory observing conditions" I, James Randi will pay $1,000,000, still not involved in this contest I guess.

"James Randi (via the JREF) will carry out the implementation and management of the challenge" Ok, now this is becoming a real joke, come on, this guy is heavily involved in this contest, and the implementation and management of it, they just stated it in black and white print. And this is what they do say, imagine what takes place they don't say in print.

"JR may or may not be present at some preliminary or some formal tests" Remember JR stands for James Randi, may or may not be present at the testing. Yeah, he's not involved whatsoever, only his name is all over it, he is involved in the protocol, he signs the checks, on and on. Maybe his secretary talks to the applicant, now and then, but Randi is probably promting her. lol

"2. Only an actual performance of the stated nature and scope, within the agreed-upon limits, will be accepted" So who decides if they stray a little outside of the stated scope or agreed-upon limits, let me see maybe a JREF member. Or will Randi just break in and call the thing? Well, I guess as long as they just happen to go by and talk to Randi, we can't know that it is anything about the contest, probably just telling them he needs a drink or something. Since he's not involved in any way.

"3. We will consult competent statisticians when an evaluation of the experimental design, is required. We have no interest in theories nor explanations of how the claimed powers might work; if an applicant provides us with such material, it will be ignored and discarded" Who gets these "competent" statisticians, maybe JREF. "No interest in theories nor explanations of how the claimed powers work" So lets get this straight, these skeptics don't believe in said powers already, and now you can't even give them explanations of these powers? If you don't believe in something, how can you really have much understanding of it?

This next one is one of the best ones: "6. In all cases, applicant will be required to perform a preliminary test either before an appointed representative, where a member or representative of the JREF staff can attend. This preliminary test is to determine if the applicant is likely to perform as promised during a formal test, using the agreed-upon protocol. To date, no applicant has passed the preliminary test, and this has eliminated the need for formal testing in those cases. There is no limit on the number of times an applicant may re-apply, but re-application can take place only after 12 months have elapsed since the completion of the preliminary test" Okay, nothing subjective about their testing procedures. They send one of their staunch skeptics who is a follower of James Randi, and likely works for him to judge the preliminary testing. And surprisingly they say right here in the application, "To date, no applicant has passed the preliminary test." What a surprise. Well, good thing they don't try to scare off applicants right there in the application. Are you serious? This is a joke right? I think that is becoming obvious.

Now, I love this, "there is no limit to the number of times you can re-apply," but re-application can only take place after 12 months has passed. Well, isn't that convenient, so if one of the JREF people deems you didn't pass the prelim, then you have to wait another year before you can even attempt to apply again. How convenient.

"7. All of the applicant's expenses such as transportation, accommodation, materials, assistants, and/or all other costs for any persons or procedures incurred in pursuit of the reward, are the sole responsibility of the applicant. Neither the JREF nor JR will bear any of the costs." More room for corruption, if JREF makes demands upon the applicant, that are out of line, costing the applicant huge amounts of money to even attempt to prove their claim, it could make things tough on the applicant. I just watched a video of Randi, himself stating that an applicant was saying that JREF was stalling the process. This is ripe once again for corruption.

"the applicant surrenders any and all rights to legal action against Mr. Randi.... any other damage of a physical and/or emotional nature, and/or financial and/or professional loss" Whoa, got themselves covered, emotional damage, yeah, that sounds about right, good thing they make you wave those, financial, professional loss. What are they doing to these people?

"This offer is made by James Randi" Once again he is involved, what a surprise.

I think this next one, is the best one, yeah, no limitations in this contest: "12. This offer is not open to any and all persons. Before being considered as an applicant, the person applying must satisfy two conditions: First, he/she must have a “media presence,” which means having been published, written about, or known to the media in regard to his/her claimed abilities or powers. This can be established by producing articles, videos, books, or other published material that specifically addresses the person’s abilities. Second, he/she must produce at least one signed document from an academic who has witnessed the powers or abilities of the person, and will validate that these powers or abilities have been verified." Boy, Mr Randi, kind of limiting who can apply now aren't we, this contest isn't so cut and dry as they want to make it out to be. A "media presence" how many people actually make the news with paranormal abilities? "And now over to our local psychic, Bob Smith." Come on, this eliminates most of the population right there. And then you must on top of that have a signed document from an academic who has witnessed the abilities and will validate that they have been verified. Well, that eliminates even more prospective applicants.

"PLEASE: Do not burden us with theories, philosophical observations, previous examples, anecdotal evidence or other comments! We are only interested in an actual demonstration." Yeah, you wouldn't want to educate the non-believers on anything, they already know it all any way. I love the "Do not burden us" statement, classic.

Thanks Harte for making certain that I read this application. It was actually worse than I expected. Now I have a better idea why this contest is seen as such a joke to people.