minuteman project and Waco type events thread

[Judge Bean]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Darkwolf\")</div>

Note for postarity, we lost three weeks of material right here

To start back up, Paul you had just explained your constitutional ammendment plan, and I had asked how that ammendment was going to get there so that we can use it.[/b]

Man, this is really painful. So this is what it feels like to be erased and rewound. Human voicemail.

I haven't seen anything on the site posted since about 5 p.m. my time (Pacific) Friday.

Now when you look at this in light of the gap, it's difficult to pick it back up. I will try to repost the Second Amendment article later, but I think that the best way to do this for now is to say these things:

1. The Titor prophecy, which begins with events resembling "Waco, Ruby Ridge, and Elian Gonzalez," with an emphasis on the distorted news coverage and Constitutional issues during a confrontation with the government, (and which haven't really occurred according to Titor's schedule); and which ends with nuclear war 10 years after, is not a lockstep, inevitable chain of events, but is instead vulnerable to action taken by average citizens to intervene.

2. The Constitution and the spirit and law of the Bill of Rights contains within it the implicit right to revolution by armed citizens when and if the explicit procedures of election, impeachment, and amendment fail to stop tyranny. The last-resort right to revolution is contained in the Second Amendment, which guarantees citizens the right to take up arms to defend liberty as an outgrowth of the Common Law right to self defense.

3. Armed resistance to the government is the final act of a tyrant to make himself known as one; before that time, it is the usual custom to carry on a facade of ordinary democracy, or to use the existing governmental structure to gain power and increase it surreptitiously. This is now occurring in the U.S., and, due to the distorted media coverage and heavy propaganda use, the actual steps taken by the government to secure its illegal power are not readily apparent.

4. You will not be able to predict or defend against the insidious attacks on your freedom because they will not be obvious; they will not be announced ahead of time; they will not be recognized in operation. Sources of dissent will be stifled as the authorities overreact in a state of paranoia and go after innocuous voices.

5. The greatest fear of the authorities embarked on this thin ice is an informed public. Ask yourself: Who says what? Informed of what? Embarked on what?

Ask yourself: Why slash education, health and human services, local law enforcement, and similar programs, and yet inflate the expenditure for pharmaceuticals? Why should we be concerned about the FDA? Who in the administration has been connected to Searle, Pfizer, Monsanto? Who on the Supreme Court?

Ask: Who benefits from constant war? Who has most to fear from an informed populace, from peace, from enhanced education and the power of towns and counties to protect their citizens?

What I would do is get the attention of your State legislators and order them to back the Amendment. I will post a draft of my proposal, and explain the Constitutional amendment process.

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

I can give some insight into their slashing local law enforcement. This would have several benifits for the budding Tyranical federal government. First, local cops would not be as willing to institute draconian control measures on the populations they serve. The people that they would be asked to arrest for things that weren't crimes before are after all the cop's neighbors as well as the people who pay his check. Secondly, more towns and counties are signing that anti patriot act pact. (forgot what they call that, and we lost the links) This could put federal agents in direct confrontations with local law enforcement. They would obviously want their potential enemies understaffed underarmed and undertrained if this were to happen. Third, the fewer police there are, the safer and more bold criminals are. The resulting crime wave will add to the general fear of the population that would cause them to accept more and more intrusive domestic security measures, and eventually some kind of federal police force.

 

[StarLord]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

Darkwolf,

are you talking about the recent croping up of 'anti-HSA' Free Zones or whatever the heck they are calling them?

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

Exactly star. That is actually a monumental thing, as it puts the policies of federal and local law enforcement in direct conflict. That concerns me a little.

 

[StarLord]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

Now, isn't THAT interesting, this is EXACTLY what Paul has been talking about. I am very glad to see it's not just us here saying 'No WAY!"

NOW if they can keep doing this and never get violent the PTB do not stand a chance. Eh?

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

NOW if they can keep doing this and never get violent the PTB do not stand a chance. Eh?

That is if They don't get violent on us. The situation I described could result in a direct confrontation between feds and LEOs. This thing states that some of the actions of the feds are illegal. If they are breaking the law, it will be local law enforcement's responsibility not just to refuse to co operate, but to put a stop to it, rescue the endangered civillian, and arrest the perpatrators. That is not something the PTB are going to take lying down. They would then use the same laws against the LEOs, their leadership, and possibly the elected leadership that signed the thing. It would be really embarrassing for them to show up with bail money for a couple of their storm troopers. I think they'd solve that one Reno style.

 

[StarLord]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Darkwolf\")</div>

That is if They don't get violent on us. The situation I described could result in a direct confrontation between feds and LEOs. This thing states that some of the actions of the feds are illegal. If they are breaking the law, it will be local law enforcement's responsibility not just to refuse to co operate, but to put a stop to it, rescue the endangered civillian, and arrest the perpatrators. That is not something the PTB are going to take lying down. They would then use the same laws against the LEOs, their leadership, and possibly the elected leadership that signed the thing. It would be really embarrassing for them to show up with bail money for a couple of their storm troopers. I think they'd solve that one Reno style.[/b]

Again, that would be EXACTLY what we as a whole would want to happen, not the violence part, but the fact that local police stood up for local people in defiance towards the FEDS. I would bet you that would be the signal of the demise for PTB and make them look more than foolish. I have to point something out here, W looks so very stupid what with the Real figures that have come out about the defecit AND the proposed social security revamp senario. Us folks with two braincells to rub together can spot the BS a mile away. Perhaps being from a non progressive, antiquated, backwards, area that he came from, it is preventing him from noticing that the emperors lies and excuses, just like his clothes, are all but see through and wouldn't hold a speck of water.

Just when you thought it was safe to build Ice Cream Castles on the Beach.

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

Again, that would be EXACTLY what we as a whole would want to happen, not the violence part, but the fact that local police stood up for local people in defiance towards the FEDS.

That would be a great thing, and I hope when the time comes it happens. However I being a local cop, and having delt with feds doubt seriously that it could go down without violence. Those guys aren't going to give up in the first place when you tell them to, and in the second, the federal enforcement system gets really vengeful when they get their noses bloodied. Exactly what happened at waco. That bunch of religious "wacos" stopped their supposedly unstoppable raid. They needed to repair their omnipotent image, so they orginized a very public slaughter. If an entire town defied them, an even bigger specticle would be called for. (in their twisted beady little eyes) I really quail to think about that.

I would bet you that would be the signal of the demise for PTB and make them look more than foolish.

It would signal the division of the country between federalist and constitutionalist, and signal the beginning of the federal crackdown on local and state's rights. In fact, I think that we could say that that day would signal the beginning of a civil war. That may signal the beginning of the end for them, but they have been entrenching themselves at least since the beginning of world war one. They won't go out without a fight.

 

[Judge Bean]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Darkwolf\")</div>

That would be a great thing, and I hope when the time comes it happens. However I being a local cop, and having delt with feds doubt seriously that it could go down without violence. Those guys aren't going to give up in the first place when you tell them to, and in the second, the federal enforcement system gets really vengeful when they get their noses bloodied. Exactly what happened at waco. That bunch of religious \"wacos\" stopped their supposedly unstoppable raid. They needed to repair their omnipotent image, so they orginized a very public slaughter. If an entire town defied them, an even bigger specticle would be called for. (in their twisted beady little eyes) I really quail to think about that.
[/b]

This is why I think that the Bush budget proposal is in and of itself a kind of veiled threat, and a promise to enforce a new centralized, federalized regime. When he gave his speech for Gonzalez, he stated that the job of the AG was to protect us from another terrorist attack-- just how long can you beat that dead horse? And that's not the job of the AG-- his or her job is to prosecute violations of federal law, such as civil rights violations, antitrust violations, drug smuggling, and illegal border crossings. The list of things the AG has not done in the past 4 years while failing to capture and prosecute the actual terrorists would be too much for any of us to hear.

There used to be an old rightwing bumpersticker that said "Support Your Local Police," and it never quite made full sense to me before this week.

It would signal the division of the country between federalist and constitutionalist, and signal the beginning of the federal crackdown on local and state's rights. In fact, I think that we could say that that day would signal the beginning of a civil war. That may signal the beginning of the end for them, but they have been entrenching themselves at least since the beginning of world war one. They won't go out without a fight.

I have thought a long time about this, trying to figure this out-- trying to figure out how history happens to us, how it seems to arise right under our feet while we're standing outside minding our own business. I have concluded tentatively that something as monumental as what we're talking about here would build so gradually and erupt so suddenly that we would hardly have any news of it ahead of time.

And that, I think, is the meaning of the "Waco events" conversation we've had here-- the last portion of it erased. The question is how we would know that the big trouble is arriving, what should we be watching for? The answer seems to be that we should be watching for the dramatic invasion of our rights, at first to arrive in somewhat remote, perhaps violent episodes.

It really doesn't matter at this point whether Titor was a hoax, or only a not-half-bad hoax, or a government disinformation operation, or an actual time traveler, does it? What matters is that, from some source, we have had a rare advance notification of history happening underneath our feet, happening to us.

We hardly know what to say to one another.

I am somewhat stunned, to tell you the truth. I've stopped collecting clippings proving that the White House (now called The White House, e.g., The Kremlin) was engaged in dismantling the Constitution. There is simply no question about it.

And there doesn't seem to be much point in making little piles of paper anymore.

One of the clippings said that the government had forty billion dollars to spend on black-budget "intelligence" operations. Another one quoted Congressmen and Senators as saying that the job of Congress was to make sure the president got his wishes enacted.

I noticed that I wrote in the previous post that

Armed resistance to the government is the final act of a tyrant to make himself known as one; before that time, it is the usual custom to carry on a facade of ordinary democracy...

and that this doesn't really make sense when you read it. What I meant to write was that armed resistance to the government is the final degrading injury inflicted on the citizens by a tyrant. It probably always follows a long reign of abuses, at the outset of which the people are not fully aware of the extent of the government's crimes.

 

[StarLord]

Re: Waco-Type events (Reloaded)

Paul, next time our Forum has a Darts Championship, I would love to have you on my side, as accurate as your are. I wouldn't quit making piles of clippings,
Who knows, you could be the 'historian' to write ALL about this from the first moment to the end, pickleheads demise.