Patriot Act type legislation

[Darkwolf]

Re: Patriot Act type legislation

And yet those who get the willies easily cannot often tell the difference between the good and the good, and just the ugly biker. And perhaps the biker himself cannot. And perhaps there is not much of a difference, really, until it comes down to the wire.

There is a big difference. Since I was raised somwhat in that culture, I'll use your example of bikers. Good ones do not sell drugs, do not rob, hijack, or steal. They are tough, and wear the same type of clothes as the bad ones. However when another citizen is in trouble, as in your armed robbery situation, they will be the first to offer help. These guys will be quite valuable if anything happens.
The bad ones are a highly mobile, drug dealing, home invading, raping, slave trading street gang.

I hope that the society we have after all of this is over will at least readjust its prejudices about who we need to be afraid of. Maybe the real threats are rich Saudis and Yalies rather than guys who are trying to avoid working for a living by means of tattoos and beer.

I hope it makes us stop judging on apperances. Neither the Biker (BTW paul, bery few of those guys "avoid working" have you seen the price on a Harley these days?) Nor the guy from Yale is nessisarially bad.

 

[Judge Bean]

Re: Patriot Act type legislation

Probably the same guy.The ones I had were in the Outlaws I think-- definitely not your weekend warriors.

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Patriot Act type legislation

Probably the same guy.The ones I had were in the Outlaws I think-- definitely not your weekend warriors.

Outlaws, rescued you. Can you provide more info. They are one of the worst criminal orginizations around. You are a lucky man I guess.

 

[StarLord]

Re: Patriot Act type legislation

There is a prime example of not judging a book by its cover. May look like a typical Biker on the outside.......

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Patriot Act type legislation

Outlaws are not typical bikers, they tend to be much worse than that. Hells Angels chapters vary from being law abiding people who love to ride, to being a meth operation on wheels. Outlaw chapters don't have the good end of that spectrum.

 

[Judge Bean]

Re: Patriot Act type legislation

I worked at an allnight gasstation down Speedway from their hangout, and they would come in after closing to each top off the tank with about 22c in gas-- which they scrupulously paid for down to the penny.

When they rolled in one night, I was being visited by a guy who had just placed his bowie knife on the counter in front of me and had commenced giving me the stare.

I turned my back on him to get the attention of one of the bikers, and he came over and I told him what was happening. He called two of his buddies over and they walked my robber around the corner. They came right back, but I don't know what they did with him.

They always called me "sir," even though at the time most of them were older than me or about the same age. They all carried pistols in holsters in plain view.

 

[StarLord]

Re: Patriot Act type legislation

That sounds like my kind of Gas Quality Inspectors. Polite, Kind, Johnny On The Spot & Circumspect.

 

[optimist]

Re: Patriot Act type legislation

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=3&...ct&sid=84439559

Officials Urge Renewal of Patriot Act

31 minutes ago

By MARK SHERMAN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The Bush administration's two top law enforcement officials on Tuesday urged Congress to renew every provision of the anti-terror Patriot Act. FBI Director Robert Mueller also asked lawmakers to expand the bureau's ability to obtain records without first asking a judge.

\"Now is not the time for us to be engaging in unilateral disarmament\" on the legal weapons now available for fighting terrorism, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said. He said that some of the most controversial provisions of the Patriot Act have proven invaluable in fighting terrorism and aiding other investigations.

\"It's important that these authorities remain available,\" Gonzales told the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Mueller said sections of the law that allow intelligence and law enforcement agencies to share information are especially important.

\"Experience has taught the FBI that there are no neat dividing lines that distinguish criminal, terrorist and foreign intelligence activity,\" Mueller said in his prepared testimony.

He also asked Congress to expand the FBI's administrative subpoena powers, which allow the bureau to obtain records without approval or a judge or grand jury.

The Patriot Act is the post-Sept. 11 law that expanded the government's surveillance and prosecutorial powers against suspected terrorists, their associates and financiers. Most of the law is permanent, but 15 provisions will expire in December unless renewed by Congress.

On the same day Gonzales was speaking to the Senate committee, Sens. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, and Dick Durbin, D-Ill., planned to reintroduce legislation designed to curb major parts of the Patriot Act that they say went too far.

\"Cooler heads can now see that the Patriot Act went too far, too fast and that it must be brought back in line with the Constitution,\" said Gregory Nojeim, associate director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Washington legislative office.

The ACLU is part of an unusual coalition of liberal and conservative groups, including the American Conservative Union, that have come together in a joint effort to lobby Congress to repeal key provisions of the Patriot Act.

Among the controversial provisions is a section permitting secret warrants for \"books, records, papers, documents and other items\" from businesses, hospitals and other organizations.

That section is known as the \"library provision\" by its critics. While it does not specifically mention bookstores or libraries, critics say the government could use it to subpoena library and bookstore records and snoop into the reading habits of innocent Americans.

Gonzales told lawmakers Tuesday the provision has been used 35 times, but never to obtain library, bookstore, medical or gun sale records.

But the criticism has led five states and 375 communities in 43 states to pass anti-Patriot Act resolutions, the ACLU says.

Even some Republicans are concerned. Senate Judiciary Chairman Arlen Specter, R-Pa., has suggested it should be tougher for federal officials to use that provision.

Gonzales already has agreed to two minor changes to the provision, and was expected to address those Tuesday, a Justice Department official said on condition of anonymity so as not to pre-empt Gonzales' testimony.

He will support giving someone who receives a secret warrant under the provision the right to consult a lawyer and challenge the warrant in court, and will back slightly tightening the standard for issuing subpoenas, the official said.

Neither change addresses the central concern of opponents, which is that it allows the government to seize records of people who are not suspected terrorists or spies.

Critics say the law allows the government to target certain groups, but the Justice Department counters that no Patriot Act-related civil rights abuses have been proven.

Just in case, Craig and Durbin want Congress to curb both expiring and nonexpiring parts of the Patriot Act, including the expiring \"library\" provision and \"sneak and peek\" or delayed notification warrants. Those warrants — which will not expire in December — allow federal officials to search suspects' homes without telling them until later.

The Justice Department said federal prosecutors have asked for 155 such warrants since 2001.

Gonzales also notes that the law has been used in non-terrorism cases. For example, federal officials used it to track over the Internet a woman who ultimately confessed to strangling an 8-months-pregnant woman and cutting the fetus from her womb.

___

On the Net:

Patriot Act: http://www.lifeandliberty.gov/

American Civil Liberties Union: http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/

American Conservative Union: http://www.conservative.org/

 

[optimist]

Re: Patriot Act type legislation

This is an org set up by Bob Barr "Patriots to Restore Checks and Balances".


http://www.checksbalances.org/index.php

Some of the greatest gifts of the Founding generation were the individual liberties we all now enjoy and the political system that allowed these liberties to mature, evolve and become entrenched in our society. The Founders realized that the greatest threat to individual liberty was the centralization of power in any one person or branch of government, and accordingly separated political power among the president, Congress, the courts and the states into a system of intricate checks and balances.

The terrible and tragic attacks of 9/11, however, continue to resonate deeply around the country and in the halls of power in Washington. Their unfortunate byproduct has been a series of new counterterrorism and national security policies and laws that threaten the very checks and balances that have made America the foremost defender of individual liberties in the world.

We believe that America is stronger than many think. We believe that our political system can still maintain our security while maximizing the freedoms that are our birthright. Patriots to Restore Checks and Balances is independent of party or ideology. Our message is universal: individual liberties are not negotiable, even in the face of terrorism.

 

[Zoomerz]

Re: Patriot Act type legislation

He said that some of the most controversial provisions of the Patriot Act have proven invaluable in fighting terrorism and aiding other investigations.

Wonder what *other investigations* they're talking about? hmmmm.....

\"Experience has taught the FBI that there are no neat dividing lines that distinguish criminal, terrorist and foreign intelligence activity,\" Mueller said in his prepared testimony.

So now they will be authorized to use the Patriot Act provisions against U.S. Citizens (that may or may not be *criminals*) without due process......NEAT!

Neither change addresses the central concern of opponents, which is that it allows the government to seize records of people who are not suspected terrorists or spies.

Lets keep the good parts! NOT

Gonzales also notes that the law has been used in non-terrorism cases. For example, federal officials used it to track over the Internet a woman who ultimately confessed to strangling an 8-months-pregnant woman and cutting the fetus from her womb.

So who would argue that catching this kind of despicable person is wrong? I WOULD! We're being set up bigger than Stuttgart friends!

Z-