Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

[Judge Bean]

Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

Originally posted by CaryP@Jan 6 2005, 09:13 PM

Paul, or we the only sane or insane people on this issue? Or is it just me that's insane? I'm no bed-wetting, left wing, pinko, communist, Democrat, socialist, radical. I've been politically conservative all of my life. But this ain't conservative politics. This is the beginnings of a facist state IMO. Way past the conservative end for my tastes. Maybe I'm just the dumbass, but this whole thing has tilted toward the surreal. Somebody shoot me before reality sets in.

Cary

​

As for the theme of Moslem-hating going on in the forum, I guess that poor taste is better than no taste at all. You'd have to be insane not to agree with all of these people surfing on the crimson tide of bigotry and belligerence. So I am insane. Cary is insane. Anybody else?

Apparently there's no such thing any more as politics. Now it's just a matter of who you hate. Rule of thumb, you all agree to hate the ones who hate you. If a Moslem hates you, they all do, so you hate them all. Eventually, everybody hates everybody. Whether someone has a different point of view about deregulation or welfare is irrelevant: is he hateful?

When you think about it, you'd have to get rid of regular politics first in order to usher in a golden age of totalitarian statism.

I'm beginning to have nothing to say about this dreadful situation on the forum. It's apparently OK to hate and get a kick out of contemplating mass death.

Aministrator? Moderators? Is anybody out there?

 

[JediStryker]

Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

Originally posted by Paul J. Lyon+Jan 6 2005, 07:19 PM--><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-CaryP@Jan 6 2005, 09:13 PM

Paul, or we the only sane or insane people on this issue? Or is it just me that's insane? I'm no bed-wetting, left wing, pinko, communist, Democrat, socialist, radical. I've been politically conservative all of my life. But this ain't conservative politics. This is the beginnings of a facist state IMO. Way past the conservative end for my tastes. Maybe I'm just the dumbass, but this whole thing has tilted toward the surreal. Somebody shoot me before reality sets in.

Cary

​

As for the theme of Moslem-hating going on in the forum, I guess that poor taste is better than no taste at all. You'd have to be insane not to agree with all of these people surfing on the crimson tide of bigotry and belligerence. So I am insane. Cary is insane. Anybody else?

Apparently there's no such thing any more as politics. Now it's just a matter of who you hate. Rule of thumb, you all agree to hate the ones who hate you. If a Moslem hates you, they all do, so you hate them all. Eventually, everybody hates everybody. Whether someone has a different point of view about deregulation or welfare is irrelevant: is he hateful?

When you think about it, you'd have to get rid of regular politics first in order to usher in a golden age of totalitarian statism.

I'm beginning to have nothing to say about this dreadful situation on the forum. It's apparently OK to hate and get a kick out of contemplating mass death.

Aministrator? Moderators? Is anybody out there?

[snapback]19729[/snapback]​

[/b][/quote]

Paul, you've always been very against censureship and us deleting/editing posts. Now you want us to? If people want to discuss whether or not Islam is a religion of peace/hatred, then I see no reason why we should stop it. If Cary wants to rip on our soon-to-be Attorney General and call Bush and Co. murderers in every other post (an exaggeration meant to make a point, nothing more), then what do I have to say about it?

It seems to me that if you think that these people are right/wrong, then you should do your best to debate and educate.

 

[vinny]

Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

I found it a sad day when torture is officially sanctioned by high level American officials. I think it betrays the ideals that America was founded on. I'm not American but many constitution around the world always looked to yours for inspiration. Your founding fathers were trying to get away from oppressive European governments. Yes there are people out there to be warry of. Your forefathers faced other enemies without coming down to the tyrants level. Your government is becoming the very thing that your founding fathers abhorred. The Spanish Inquisition found perfectly good reasons (in thier mind)to do the atrocities they did. It wasn't right then and it is not right now. Many of the prisioners in Guantanemo have not been charged. This is going back to medieval justice. One of the great strides in history was the magna carta. It made it illegal to be held with out charge. If they can have an excuse ,to do it to these prisioners ,don't you think it can be twisted to citizens in the states? This isn't just a slippery slope, it's a large hill.

 

[TheSadGoat]

Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

Originally posted by vinny@Jan 6 2005, 09:11 PM
I found it a sad day when torture is officially sanctioned by high level American officials. I think it betrays the ideals that America was founded on. I'm not American but many constitution around the world always looked to yours for inspiration. Your founding fathers were trying to get away from oppressive European governments. Yes there are people out there to be warry of. Your forefathers faced other enemies without coming down to the tyrants level. Your government is becoming the very thing that your founding fathers abhorred. The Spanish Inquisition found perfectly good reasons (in thier mind)to do the atrocities they did. It wasn't right then and it is not right now. Many of the prisioners in Guantanemo have not been charged. This is going back to medieval justice. One of the great strides in history was the magna carta. It made it illegal to be held with out charge. If they can have an excuse ,to do it to these prisioners ,don't you think it can be twisted to citizens in the states? This isn't just a slippery slope, it's a large hill.

​

I don't post too often but this is a subject that I feel very strongly about.
I agree with Vinny, very well put.
Cary and Paul, if you are insane, count me among you.

 

[Judge Bean]

Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

Originally posted by JediStryker+Jan 7 2005, 12:44 AM--><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by Paul J. Lyon@Jan 6 2005, 07:19 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-CaryP

@Jan 6 2005, 09:13 PM

Paul, or we the only sane or insane people on this issue?? Or is it just me that's insane?? I'm no bed-wetting, left wing, pinko, communist, Democrat, socialist, radical.? I've been politically conservative all of my life.? But this ain't conservative politics.? This is the beginnings of a facist state IMO.? Way past the conservative end for my tastes.? Maybe I'm just the dumbass, but this whole thing has tilted toward the surreal.? Somebody shoot me before reality sets in.

Cary

​

As for the theme of Moslem-hating going on in the forum, I guess that poor taste is better than no taste at all. You'd have to be insane not to agree with all of these people surfing on the crimson tide of bigotry and belligerence. So I am insane. Cary is insane. Anybody else?

Apparently there's no such thing any more as politics. Now it's just a matter of who you hate. Rule of thumb, you all agree to hate the ones who hate you. If a Moslem hates you, they all do, so you hate them all. Eventually, everybody hates everybody. Whether someone has a different point of view about deregulation or welfare is irrelevant: is he hateful?

When you think about it, you'd have to get rid of regular politics first in order to usher in a golden age of totalitarian statism.

I'm beginning to have nothing to say about this dreadful situation on the forum. It's apparently OK to hate and get a kick out of contemplating mass death.

Aministrator? Moderators? Is anybody out there?

[snapback]19729[/snapback]​

Paul, you've always been very against censureship and us deleting/editing posts. Now you want us to? If people want to discuss whether or not Islam is a religion of peace/hatred, then I see no reason why we should stop it. If Cary wants to rip on our soon-to-be Attorney General and call Bush and Co. murderers in every other post (an exaggeration meant to make a point, nothing more), then what do I have to say about it?

It seems to me that if you think that these people are right/wrong, then you should do your best to debate and educate.

[snapback]19732[/snapback]​

[/b][/quote]

I wish you all the best.

 

[StarLord]

Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

How did we get to Hate of muslims as a group and contemplation of mass death?

Nor do I see how any of the posts here were condoning torture. My main focus was on the fact that 1. America didn't invent the practice. 2. What are the Iraquis doing to our men and civilians besides torturing them and beheading some of them? Where is the Geneva convention concerning this? What does the rest of the world have to say about the treatment to OUR men being held?

Why is it that the US is always the one to get kicked for something that is done all around? Have we beheaded anyone and sent out videos of this? Have we murdered civilian contractors after we sent out videos of them pleading for their respective countries to move out? Obviously it's not a matter of tit for tat.

I am not supporting anyone that orders torture of prisoners. However, show me the orders. There are supposed reports of information from the CIA and the FBI regarding this? Who wrote those orders?

We have always been looking to who benefits from the release of any information as big as this, well who beside the poor prisoners benefits from this information being released? Is this just a landslide of questionable information until Bush gets dragged out of office?

 

[CaryP]

Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

How did we get to Hate of muslims as a group and contemplation of mass death?

Maybe it's the demonization of Muslims that was part of the torture authorization.

Nor do I see how any of the posts here were condoning torture. My main focus was on the fact that 1. America didn't invent the practice. 2. What are the Iraquis doing to our men and civilians besides torturing them and beheading some of them? Where is the Geneva convention concerning this? What does the rest of the world have to say about the treatment to OUR men being held?

Outside of Sosue's diminishment of the importance of the Geneva Conventions, I didn't see anyone condoning torture. I'm not disagreeing with you on your other points, but that ain't the point I was making. The point I was making is that I find it criminal for the administration to have authorized it, and that the man behind the orchestration of the whole thing is in all probability will be confirmed as Atty. General. We are the United States. Our history says we are supposed to be above torture as a matter of policy. We've apparently failed our ancestors in that matter.

Why is it that the US is always the one to get kicked for something that is done all around? Have we beheaded anyone and sent out videos of this? Have we murdered civilian contractors after we sent out videos of them pleading for their respective countries to move out? Obviously it's not a matter of tit for tat.

Because we hold ourselves as better than that, as does most of the rest of the "civilisied" world, in answer to your first question. No, we haven't beheaded anyone that I've heard about, nor sent out videos, but we got lots of pictures taken by the troops who thought it would be a hoot to show the folks back home how prisoners were being mistreated. The really bad stuff, according to quotes I've read attributed to Rumsfeld, has been kept under lock and key. It's humiliating and embarassing. We don't have some "holy war" that says we should do this kind of cruelty. We have laws against it. I don't care how depraved these people are, we're supposed to be above all of that.

I am not supporting anyone that orders torture of prisoners. However, show me the orders. There are supposed reports of information from the CIA and the FBI regarding this? Who wrote those orders?

If you have the time, I'd suggest you read some of what's available at this site.

TORTURE SCANDAL Archives

The first article at the top of the page claims that our "war time president" signed the orders authorizing torture. Of course, they're backpeddaling like crawfish in a trap now, after the evidence of the scandal has broken.

We have always been looking to who benefits from the release of any information as big as this, well who beside the poor prisoners benefits from this information being released? Is this just a landslide of questionable information until Bush gets dragged out of office?

Maybe the ones who benefit are those that can sleep with a less heavy conscience for outing this whole thing. Maybe they were disgusted with the whole affair, and had a similar reaction to it, as I did. This can't be freakin' happening, and people need to know about it. As for W getting dragged out of office, LOL. Ain't gonna happen. The information is anything but questionable. But no one really seems to give a rat's ass.

I hope I've maybe cleared up whatever confusion that may have been caused by my initial and subsequent posts. It doesn't matter who invented torture, or who did it first. That the current administration and a host of its top members orchestrated and authorized the use of torture in a systemic and profound way is criminal IMO. Most of the people around here that I've talked to, are glad the U.S. has used torture. They feel some retribution for 9/11, even though those subjected to the treatment had nothing to do with it. Okay, who knows, there might have been one or more of those tortured that had pre-knowledge or were even in on the whole 9/11 attack. Let's just make that a given, so I won't have to hear about that as an "excuse" Torture is still not justified or legal even in that circumstance. You start making torture "okay" for some, pretty soon, it's "okay" for more, and eventually becomes "okay" in any instance. I ain't playing that.

Cary

 

[StarLord]

Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

How did we get to Hate of muslims as a group and contemplation of mass death?

Maybe it's the demonization of Muslims that was part of the torture authorization.

No Cary, my question was who ever said that any of us hated muslims as a group? We are way to smart for that. And exactly who is contemplating mass death? I think Paul made those statements. My question was how did he arrive at that conclusion?

Discussing this stuff is not necessarily a statement of belief in any direction.

Still, I'd like to see a copy of those so called "Orders" and exactly who issued them. Wouldn't you?

 

[Darkwolf]

Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

I was told once that if you were interrogated according the Geneva Convention, it would be like being interrogated by Barny the Purple Dinosaur. \" I love you, you love me\"

Sue, that would break me in about ten seconds flat. I'd beg for the electrodes.

No Cary, my question was who ever said that any of us hated muslims as a group? We are way to smart for that. And exactly who is contemplating mass death? I think Paul made those statements. My question was how did he arrive at that conclusion?

I think that Paul was referring to some things that Mai and I had said on another topic. We both seem to see muslims as more of a group problem than does he. Apperently that translates to being hateful.

 

[CaryP]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

I think this thread fits best for this post, but hey I could be wrong. No, the article below is not about torture. It's about banned chemical and other WMD's used by the U.S. military in the assault on Fallujah. Hey, we didn't find any WMD's in Iraq, so we brought some WMD's to show 'em how harmful they are. LOL No idea of the logic behind it, but I've seen these claims before. Now the "official" Iraqi govt. is saying they've found evidence of WMD's used by the U.S. military. Yeah, I know, the blood lust of battle makes what would normally be "unthinkable" not just "thinkable" but preferable. Doesn't make it right.

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m10078&l=i&size=1&hd=0

[font=Verdana,Arial]Iraqi Health Ministry confirms use by American occupation forces of internationally prohibited weapons in its attacks on al-Fallujah[/font]

? [font=Verdana,Arial] Mafkarat al-Islam[/font]


March 2, 2005 - Dr Khalid ash-Shaykhli, a representative of the Iraqi Ministry of Health who was authorized to assess health conditions in al-Fallujah after the end of the major battles there, announced that the surveys and studies which a medical team did in al-Fallujah and subsequently reported to the Ministry confirm that US forces used substances that are internationally prohibited -- including mustard gas, nerve gas, and other burning chemicals -- in the course of its attacks on the city.

Ash-Shaykhli held a press conference in the Health Ministry building in Baghdad\'s Bab al-Mu\'azzam section on Tuesday. He began by reporting on the final results of the fact-finding mission\'s survey of the situation in which the people of al-Fallujah find themselves. He said that the city now is still experiencing the effects of chemical and other types of weapons used by the Americans, which will be causing serious diseases over the long term.

The correspondent for Mafkarat al-Islam asked ash-Shaykhli what were the facts regarding use by the occupation forces of limited nuclear weapons. Dr. ash-Shaykhli said,

\\"What I saw during our researches in al-Fallujah make me believe everything that has been said about that battle. I absolutely do not exclude their use of nuclear and chemical substances, since all forms of nature were wiped out in that city. I can even say that we found dozens, not to say hundreds, of stray dogs, cats, and birds that had perished as a result of those gasses.\\"

During the press conference, which was attended by more than 20 Iraqi and Arab journalists, Ash-Shaykhli promised that he would be sending the study and the results that the committee produced to responsible bodies -- both Iraqi and international ones.

The press conference was attended by correspondents of the Iraqi ash-Sharqiyah television network, the Iraqi government-run al-\'Iraqiyah satellite TV network, and the as-Sumariyah network, in addition to foreign media, such as the American Washington and the Knight-Ridder service and the Iraqi as-Sabah newspaper -- besides the correspondent of Mafkarat al-Islam.

The findings disclosed at Tuesday\'s [Tuesday, March 1, 2005] press conference must be seen as the most serious statements to be made since the end of nearly four months of military operations in al-Fallujah, Mafkarat al-Islam noted. Mafkarat al-Islam was the first to report on the American occupation forces\' use of gasses and burning and chemical substances during the first days after the outbreak of fighting in the city.

Translated by website special correspondent Eric M?ller ?

Yes, I've seen pictures of "dead people" from the Fallujah fight. Some of them were chemically burned. Doesn't provide 100% proof that chemical weapons were used, but the above report does. Chalk this up there with the systematic torture approved by the White House. Oh yeah, but it's okay. Our new Atty. General is the lawyer that orchestrated that for W. Gonzales is also a staunch "Christian." More soldiers for the God squad on Pennsylvania Ave. Anybody taking bets as to if or where the war crimes tribunals will be held? LOL My bet is that "none" will be the heavy odds on favorite.

Cary