Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

[Zoomerz]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

Cary;

And this bozo, war criminal, ass clown will be confirmed as Atty. General. The hell has gone wrong with this country?

Watch it buddy! You're on thin ice with me now~ :lol:

Z-

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

Uh, Cary, has it occurred to you that the chemical weapons residue might have come from one of those bomb factorys that we blew up. I've asked a couple of buddies who were there about the use of chem in falujia, and they don't know what I'm talking about. There are also quite a number of industrial chemicals that if blown into the air seem a heck of alot like nerve or mustard gas.

 

[CaryP]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Darkwolf\")</div>

Uh, Cary, has it occurred to you that the chemical weapons residue might have come from one of those bomb factorys that we blew up. I've asked a couple of buddies who were there about the use of chem in falujia, and they don't know what I'm talking about. There are also quite a number of industrial chemicals that if blown into the air seem a heck of alot like nerve or mustard gas.[/b]

Entirely possible Phil. But I've been reading stuff since the Fallujah offensive happened from many different sources. Some way on the wild side to some on the conservative side. The middle points to some "banned" chemical weapons being used by the U.S. military. I know it's not easy, pleasant, whatever thinking our boys (gals for you feminists) would use some outlawed chemicals to fight a war. But I've seen videos from Iraq with Capts. stoking the troops up with "it's the good fight" and the "evil enemy" and crap like that to get the blood lust going. Not saying it is wrong, just saying it could be misused/abused. Have you seen the number/percentage of the combat troops coming back from this hell hole that wind up being psychotic and homeless? Something "real bad" is going down over there, and no, not everyone is seeing it first hand. But how many of the SS saw Hitler's death camps on a percentage basis?

Phil, I'm not knocking our men/women in uniform. Hell, I have the utmost respect for them, and wish them the very best. That IMO is a quick and safe return state side, even if it means counting cow chips at Ft. Polk a couple of hundred miles from here. What I'm knocking is the PNAC agenda for ongoing global war at any price. Who do you think would give an order to use banned chemical weapons? Some grunt in the field? uh, no way. That kind of crap comes from way high on top. White House, to Defense Dept. to Pentagon, to military brass, to field commanders, to grunts in the field. That's all I'm saying. You think some 18 to 19 yr. old kid is gonna tell his 30 yr. old Sgt. to "kiss my ass" cause the order is criminal? Hell, they're trying to get past popping their pimples. They have no way of knowing the weight of what they're up to. They might not even know what exactly they are doing. "Fire these rounds." "Sir, yes sir." Nobody said the rounds contained banned chemicals. Put your gas mask on because the "insurgents" may be using chemicals. The hell I know.

Anyway, Phil, I like you. You bring a perspective here that few of "us" have, if any. I appreciate you offering your perspective, especially when it juxtaposes mine. Makes me think. I think in the big picture of events, we're on the same page. It's the damned details that has us question one another. That's a good thing. Thanks for playing straight. I'll shut up for now. Time for a cigar run and home. See you around the plantation pal.

Cary

 

[K@t 5]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

Well this ought to make for a long post, but I think that it really belongs in this thread.

<span style=\'font-family:Arial\'>Bush\'s Erratic Behavior Worries White House Aides</span></span>
By DOUG THOMPSON
Jun 4, 2004, 06:30

?President George W. Bush?s increasingly erratic behavior and wide mood swings have the halls of the West Wing buzzing lately as aides privately express growing concern over their leader?s state of mind.

?In meetings with top aides and administration officials, the President goes from quoting the Bible in one breath to obscene tantrums against the media, Democrats and others that he classifies as ?enemies of the state.?

?Worried White House aides paint a portrait of a man on the edge, increasingly wary of those who disagree with him and paranoid of a public that no longer trusts his policies in Iraq or at home.

??It reminds me of the Nixon days,? says a longtime GOP political consultant with contacts in the White House. ?Everybody is an enemy; everybody is out to get him. That?s the mood over there.?

?In interviews with a number of White House staffers who were willing to talk off the record, a picture of an administration under siege has emerged, led by a man who declares his decisions to be ?God?s will? and then tells aides to ?**** over? anyone they consider to be an opponent of the administration.

??We?re at war, there?s no doubt about it. What I don?t know anymore is just who the enemy might be,? says one troubled White House aide. ?We seem to spend more time trying to destroy John Kerry than al Qaeda and our enemies list just keeps growing and growing.?

?Aides say the President gets ?hung up on minor details,? micromanaging to the extreme while ignoring the bigger picture. He will spend hours personally reviewing and approving every attack ad against his Democratic opponent and then kiss off a meeting on economic issues.

??This is what is killing us on Iraq,? one aide says. ?We lost focus. The President got hung up on the weapons of mass destruction and an unproven link to al Qaeda. We could have found other justifiable reasons for the war but the President insisted the focus stay on those two, tenuous items.?

?Aides who raise questions quickly find themselves shut out of access to the President or other top advisors. Among top officials, Bush?s inner circle is shrinking. Secretary of State Colin Powell has fallen out of favor because of his growing doubts about the administration?s war against Iraq.

?The President\'s abrupt dismissal of CIA Directory George Tenet Wednesday night is, aides say, an example of how he works.

?\"Tenet wanted to quit last year but the President got his back up and wouldn\'t hear of it,\" says an aide. \"That would have been the opportune time to make a change, not in the middle of an election campaign but when the director challenged the President during the meeting Wednesday, the President cut him off by saying \'that\'s it George. I cannot abide disloyalty. I want your resignation and I want it now.\"

?Tenet was allowed to resign \"voluntarily\" and Bush informed his shocked staff of the decision Thursday morning. One aide says the President actually described the decision as \"God\'s will.\"

?God may also be the reason Attorney General John Ashcroft, the administration?s lightning rod because of his questionable actions that critics argue threatens freedoms granted by the Constitution, remains part of the power elite. West Wing staffers call Bush and Ashcroft ?the Blues Brothers? because ?they?re on a mission from God.?

??The Attorney General is tight with the President because of religion,? says one aide. ?They both believe any action is justifiable in the name of God.?

?But the President who says he rules at the behest of God can also tongue-lash those he perceives as disloyal, calling them ?****ing assholes? in front of other staff, berating one cabinet official in front of others and labeling anyone who disagrees with him ?unpatriotic? or ?anti-American.?

??The mood here is that we?re under siege, there?s no doubt about it,? says one troubled aide who admits he is looking for work elsewhere. ?In this administration, you don?t have to wear a turban or speak Farsi to be an enemy of the United States. All you have to do is disagree with the President.?

?The White House did not respond to requests for comment on the record.

?
<span style=\'font-family:Arial\'>? Copyright 2004 by Capitol Hill Blue

My mother always told me as I was growing up ?If so and so jumped off a bridge would you follow them?? Yes, other countries may have done this. However, most likely they never signed the Geneva conventions, and if they did, they have been kicked out (Iraq, I believe was). America is seen as being above this type of behavior. We set ourselves up as role models; we need to act like one. Other countries look to us for hope, and what do we give them? A severe reality check. The man we allowed to stay in charge is a bully, a liar, and a cheat. What kind of message does that send? I'm sure by now, our forefathers are rolling in their graves and calling us the ungrateful little brats that our parents did when we were kids.


Cary, I?m with you all the way. Don?t worry, I?ll bring the little white coats to the final party for all of us.

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

Anyway, Phil, I like you. You bring a perspective here that few of \"us\" have, if any. I appreciate you offering your perspective, especially when it juxtaposes mine. Makes me think. I think in the big picture of events, we're on the same page. It's the damned details that has us question one another. That's a good thing. Thanks for playing straight. I'll shut up for now. Time for a cigar run and home. See you around the plantation pal.

No problem Cary, There'd be little excitement on the forum or in the world if we agreed on everything. I'm glad that we can do so in a respectful manner, and not take it personally. Enjoy those cigars.
I do agree with you that we aren't getting the full story from Iraq, what my friends over there are telling me is not jiving with what the media is saying. The really strange thing is that its not jiving with what the alternative media is leaking either. It is in some ways a better, and in some ways worse picture. I don't know what is going on, but the administration could make it'self look alot better than it does if it would release some of the things that I have heard about first hand. Its not doing so, which leads me to believe that the whole pollitical show surrounding the war is just a dog and pony show ment to lead us to either believe something or to divide us left against right. The more thinking I do, and the more I learn about the pattern, the more I think that the politics of the next few years have been carefully scripted. I'll even predict the next act. There will be a scandle of some kind around the next election which sinks the republican's chances in the next presidential election. They will lose many seats in congress, and Hillary Clinton will be the next president. Then there will be one or more horrifying acts of DOMESTIC terrorism. (a variation on the theme being that these happen before the election, are linked to the right wing mainstream, and that is the scandal that ousts the republicans) After that, I don't think I need to elaborate on what will happen.
Sorry, just thinking on the keyboard.

 

[XDrFirefly]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

I will state first off, I havent read all the links yet. I just wanted to state a quick comment.

If you saw on TV, that the "bad guys" were beheading civilians, american, reporters could would u want to teach some of the "bad guys" a lesson. If you know they won't give you the same treatment. Im not talking right or wrong. I'm talking human rage, and anger that gets inbreed into us through media, and training.

To end this rant let me end with a song lyric
"This Is War"

i'm just a normal man
i wouldn't hurt nothing at all
but here we are

our leaders have a plan
i'd only kill if it's for them
now here we are

i drove in a car and flew in a plane
to come to your house and kick your door in
now it's down to this, it's just you and me
i'll blow your fnkking head off for my country

i go to church and tithe
i go to work in a suit and tie
but this is war
i'm really not sure why
but the tv says that you are wrong
now here we are

-Smile Empty Soul

Dr FF

 

[CaryP]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

Looks like our military brass in Iraq authorized the prison torture at Abu Ghraib. Sons a bitches. Why isn't Gen. Sanchez on trial? 'Cause they offered up a few grunts for the public. I'll be real surprised if anything comes of this, but what the hell. Notice the article is from the BBC. I haven't seen any coverage in the US press. How convenient.

Cary


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4392519.stm

? ? ? ? ? US memo shows Iraq jail methods ? ?
? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? The ACLU is currently taking part in a lawsuit against Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld accusing him of responsibility for torture and abuse of detainees in US military custody in Iraq and Afghanistan. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

 

[StarLord]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

Funny, it used to be that when a 'terrorist' was known to be hiding in a village, the powers that used to be there, simply destroyed the whole town. I wonder where the Geneva Convention was when that happened?

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

My feelings exactly star. What was described there is not IMHO torture, harsh yes, but we are much harder on our own people in SEER training.

 

[PhantomLord]

Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.

I've gotten alot of heat elsewhere for my stand on torture, but the way I see it if stripping a guy naked and having a woman laugh at him prevents a car bomb from going off in a crowded market then so be it.

Compared to what other countries do, what The United States has been accused of is pretty tame in comparison.

Besides its not like these soilders had any choice in the matter. If they didnt go along with this they would be facing derlection of duty charges and I think those are far worse then what they are facing right now.

It makes me laugh though that the ACLU and other groups say terrorists should have access to our courts.

Its been joked about before, but I can really see how these groups would of cost us World War 2. Just imagine the lawsuits that would of been filed after the first atomic bomb was dropped.