Re: Torture Condoned by the US Govt.
Cary;
You have no fight from me on "legitimate" abuses. I'll quote you below so we're clear:
There are several instances where prisoners have been beaten to death or died from injuries inflicted during an 'interrogation\" session.
There are several instances where the children of prisoners were abused in the presence of their parents.
There are a number of instances where prisoners have been raped (boys and females) by our military and \"intelligence\" personnel.
There are a lot of instances where prisoners have suffered permanent injuries from the abuse/torture they received.
With the exception of the last one, I would wholeheartedly agree with you that these should be punished. Perhaps my reasoning might be a little different, but the outcome the same. None of the above do anything to further our intelligence goals, except the last. I believe it is our *duty* to deter our enemy in any way that we can to reduce their willingness to fight. Rape does not do that, beating someone to death does not do that, and humiliation (making children watch) does not do that. Those only serve one end, the perverted person's doing it.
However, I see little difference between shooting someone in the head and tearing out their fingernails one by one in regards to dealing with an enemy. Both inflict "permanent injury", and both accomplish our goal in:
a) reducing the enemies ability to fight, and
B) gaining valuable information that reduces our enemies ability to fight.
Sometimes in war bombs explode, ripping people's arms and legs off, but leaving them alive. I don't consider this to be *humane* either. But we don't prosecute our soldiers for doing that. No, that's considered "fighting fair". Sorry, I don't buy it.
Most of the cases I have heard of that have resulted in innocent American troops (who were validly carrying out orders and "doing their job") being tried for what I consider to be "trivial" violations (not at all what you describe above). These particular occurrences are ridiculous, and the soldiers hurt by this prosecution should be released immediately (MHO).
On to other parts of your post, most of which I completely agree with you on:
Whether or not we should be in the war at all is a great point, and I happen to agree with you that we should not be. But if we're gonna fight a war (just or not), I say we fight it to win, and stop putting our troops in harm's way by reducing their ability to fight.
Detainees - Another "non-battlefield" issue. I really don't know how I feel on this subject (just trying to be honest about it). I do see your points, and can't argue with them.
Was it an excuse of \"I was just following orders\" for Nazi soldiers who tortured and/or executed prisoners at death camps? No. They were held accountable.
Actually, I know of no "enlisted" rank Nazi soldiers that "followed orders" and were brought up on war crimes charges. Yes, officers who ordered the actions and higher-ups that created the policies were prosecuted. Also, enlisteds that carried out their own actions were as well I'm sure.
Respectfully, please tell me why Lt. Pantano is guilty of anything? Tell me why Capt. Maynulet has been convicted? And you know we could go on and on over this type of witchhunt.
I'm not arguing our sense of decency as human beings. I'm arguing our warped sense of justice and the wrongful "fingerpointing" of GOOD AMERICANS that are unjustly prosecuted. How many GOOD AMERICAN PATRIOTS will be killed because we caused a "split second hesitation" while they tried to figure out whether or not their actions were *moral*??? There just doesn't seem to be any amount of common sense being applied to our efforts. No discernment of truth at all.
I guess in summary, my point is, I don't see how we can continually cite the true injustices that our government is committing against our enemies, without presenting the true injustices that are being perpetrated on our innocent, loyal American soldiers. If you think about it, our positions are NOT opposing. They just present different aspects.
Otherwise, again, I couldn't agree more with you that we (as a country) need to take the high moral ground in protecting human rights of all peoples. The atrocities you speak of are just plain wrong.
MHO
Z-