Debate John Titor: Real Time Traveler or a Hoaxer?

[Passive_Extremist]

Re: John Titor Update: Exclusive Report!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Goodwin\")</div>

Well, can you come up with a satisfactory non-Buckaroo Banzai explanation for 9/11 or this little zinger?:[/b]

What ? Why he said nothing about it? It's seems pretty obvious to me that he said he wasn't going to name events like that and pearl harbor and even explained why. If you can't see that, you don't WANT to see that.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Goodwin\")</div>

Titor could (assuming his WMD prediction came bonafidely before the Iraq war - can you prove for a fact that it did? Where is the link to that by the way? Please don't post it from the John Titor Times. As I said above they've withdrawn the picture of Titor's bent laser and this makes them even more suspect in my eyes) have guessed right about WMDs. But with regard to Y2K... I mean, there's wrong and then there's just plain WRONG.[/b]

I know at timetravelportal.net, they have all JT's posts and I'm sure I could find it for you, I mean unless you think someone hacked into the message board archives and changed the dates..that's one elaborate hoaxer.

But if you questioning the validity of the posts , why wouldn't the prepetrator just make all titor's predictions more accurate? Why not correct the CERN thing to make the dates more accurate or Y2K more accurate?



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Goodwin\")</div>

More than that, Titor's claimed detour to 2000 was, he said, specifically to experience the millennium bug. Why? There were no real effects from it, but he also gave the wrong year (the changeover from1999 to 2000 was critical, not 2000 to 2001)[/b]

How do you know that information wasn't put in there by some JT debunkers? Can you prove it wasn't?



Here's a better question, why are all JT debunker's so rabid towards anyone who's open minded to the idea?

 

[Goodwin]

Re: John Titor Update: Exclusive Report!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Passive_Extremist\")</div>

What ? Why he said nothing about it? It's seems pretty obvious to me that he said he wasn't going to name events like that and pearl harbor and even explained why. If you can't see that, you don't WANT to see that.


Did you read my post at all?

Titor didn't have to give specifics or break his own rules with 9/11. All he had to do was state: \"Things will be differant after September 2001\" and no one would be in any doubt afterwards what he'd been talking about.


Did he. No he did not and then claimed the usual b/s about why.


Why not correct the CERN thing to make the dates more accurate or Y2K more accurate?

So you admit that he's inaccurate then?



How do you know that information wasn't put in there by some JT debunkers? Can you prove it wasn't?

Well, if you take that line you're going to take there's going to be a really booooring argument.Cos, that way I presume you could argue against anything that disagrees with your point of view by saying its the work of debunkers.



Here's a better question, why are all JT debunker's so rabid towards anyone who's open minded to the idea?[/b]

Maybe its cos the great broad strokes of lazy logic, woolly-minded thinking and dodgy conclusion-jumping is so enfuriating in its stupidity. An actual Professor in advanced physics in the shape of Dr Brown turns up to dismiss the science of the story as such and people with bad grades in High School Physics still have to second guess him. People point out the endless problems with internal consistancy and accuracy and its written off with scientific sci-fi babble. And any real problems with the story just seem to be ignored.

Speaking of which...why do you think John Titor Times have withdrawn the laser picture?

 

[LetThereBeLight!]

Re: John Titor Update: Exclusive Report!

I did not know that being one of the original posters, that I had to actually believe anything Titor said. That being said, all I can even say is events may be thought of as being similiar or from a parallel universe. But still, actually no one can act because of info, and only info Titor gave. Well, only to a point of the same ol' thing -- living!

I can point out original posts and original pictures, that laser picture being one.
But also and exactly from the science, I can not prove him, and he did not want to be believed. Titor did not want to talk to scientists or anyone like that. He simply did not want to. Now, that is what he did!

In fact from anything Titor did, you can not believe him, at least not yet. As he said, the only one that may be convinced is a person standing in front of a cooling distortion unit, and then it is still hard to believe, and that means only his family!

So, no one can prove Titor until someone lives till 2035 or so!

JohnTitor.com is not an original poster, I am, but not on the first threads at TTI forum either, but only on Art Bell BBS forum.

I only pointed out an alternative that science may come up with. As to that laser picture, that person is sitting in the passenger seat of the vehicle, and the supposed distortion unit is well outside of the vehicle. The person (I guess supposedly Titor) is sitting in the Driver's seat - -taking the picture. (but outside in the background of that picture there is still no light! Another thing is the quality of the total picture, and I have taken pictures in the dark. They turn out green, unless one uses a flash, but in that picture, either the flash is not like a flash that now would be used in the present day to take a picture, whereas to me, then even the background would show some light, while it does not, not at all. Or else, since there is color, and a flash is not used, then it is impossible to take a picture like that in the present day. I know, I own a camera, and without a flash, you get green from the CCD of the camera. But still the flash or no flash light in that picture can be debated, but still the picture shows color, a little, like the blue and the red, and the greys, of a dark night. What it does not show is any light in the background, which to me, is either it is missing since it is so dark outside the passagers' window, or it is not even there to show! I just point that out, and gravity and only gravity is not what really would make that distortion unit in the end! There would have to be other forces included already in the works of the TOE -- theory of everything somehow, and the machine if it did work, is not solely depended on gravity as the main force! I do not know in other words!)

http://web.archive.org/web/20010522234641/.../letters11.html
Now read the copyright at the bottom of the page!
And this was after someone else, asked Titor for cleaned-up pictures (better than the originals he showed -- shown at Anomlies) at the end of the discussion there at the Art Bell BBS board. At that time, there were government workers also reading the posts! (a lot of lookers!)
Original Anomalies pictures Titor posted first: (while someone asked for the above pictures to see them clearer!)
http://www.anomalies.net/time_travel/john.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20010516223421/...bs.artbell.com/
http://web.archive.org/web/20010603064617/....php?forumid=25
http://web.archive.org/web/20010413040119/...p?threadid=1203
But so there are only the first 5 pages, and the last page in the archive!
That is the only pages --- archived!

Now for something completely different, and a letter from Titor's mother, about the other picture letter:
http://www.timetravelinstitute.com/ttiforu...sb=5&o=&fpart=1

http://figure26films.com/blog/index.php
To Who It May Concern: (that part of the webpage, folks!)

And about a film coming up there from those folks!
Excuse me, I have to make another post there, I'll be back here in a moment!

What was I talking about?

Oh, my new theory, that has not seem to sink into their brains there yet.
There is only time, and the movement of time makes everything else, somehow that is perceived. That is because, of reading last night till 3:30 AM about all this stuff -- like the mutliverse, modal logic, and omiverse, and philosophy, all considering that parallel universes do exist, but which interpretation is correct -- the Copenhagen interpt, or the other major one, I forget the name of now without looking it up.
Now there it is assumed that energy makes up everything, but that is still not correct to me. The movement of time (or time condensed originally) made the energy and everything else, and space does not exist. Only movement in time exists!

And afterall, how does anyone know that Titor did not screw up this timeline, he supposedly made, and if he stayed any longer, then the divergence would really be different, even more than what it is now, since he was posting on Internet forums! Afterall, according to Titor, this parallel worldline, is not like his original worldline -- according to him. He there in his parallel worldline did not remember seeing a older him being a time traveler, originally, and his mother does not remember meeting an older version of her son in his parallel universe!

Before energy, time was compressed!

 

[Lagnar]

Re: John Titor Update: Exclusive Report!

One
basic
truth can
be used as
a foundation for
a mountain of lies,
and if we dig down deep
enough in the mountain of lies,
and bring out that truth, to set it
on top of the mountain of lies; the entire
mountain of lies will crumble under the weight of
that one truth, and there is nothing more devastating to a
structure of lies than the revalation of the truth upon which
the structure of lies was built, because the shock waves of
the revelation of the truth reverberate, and continue to
reverberate throughout the Earth for generations to
follow, awakening even those
people who had no
desire to be
awakened
to the
truth.

-- Delamer Duverus
​

Whatever the truth may be, it is and will always be far more interesting, encompassing and entertaining than anything that can ever be fabricated.

Thus, no matter what kind of mind we adorn (open, closed, programmed, skeptic, believer, paranoid, complacent, etc...), we will forever look to the truth for true foundation and understanding of our ever-dwindling purpose.

 

[Passive_Extremist]

Re: John Titor Update: Exclusive Report!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Goodwin\")</div>

Maybe its cos the great broad strokes of lazy logic, woolly-minded thinking and dodgy conclusion-jumping is so enfuriating in its stupidity. [/b]

If it's so stupid, why would you waste one ounce of energy trying to debunk it?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Goodwin\")</div>

An actual Professor in advanced physics in the shape of Dr Brown turns up to dismiss the science of the story as such and people with bad grades in High School Physics still have to second guess him.[/b]

Anyone with half a brain can tell you phsyics isn't a fixed science, anyone saying the different is just being arrogant and foolish.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Goodwin\")</div>

People point out the endless problems with internal consistancy and accuracy and its written off with scientific sci-fi babble. And any real problems with the story just seem to be ignored. [/b]

I haven't seen any problems that can debunk the story yet, the ones that do seem shaky have wiggle room and the ones that were 100% accurate like WMD prediction are completely ignored by JT debunkers in order to debunk the JT story in some mad fit of blind rage no matter what.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Goodwin\")</div>

Speaking of which...why do you think John Titor Times have withdrawn the laser picture?[/b]

I'm not gonna speculate, it's got nothing to do with titor's predictions in my opinion.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Goodwin\")</div>

Titor didn't have to give specifics or break his own rules with 9/11. All he had to do was state: \"Things will be differant after September 2001\" and no one would be in any doubt afterwards what he'd been talking about.


[/b]

So, how is you would've done things differently than JT proof of anything?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Goodwin\")</div>

Why not correct the CERN thing to make the dates more accurate or Y2K more accurate? ?

So you admit that he's inaccurate then?[/b]

Yes, but by the rules of his story, it's explainable.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Goodwin\")</div>

Well, if you take that line you're going to take there's going to be a really booooring argument.Cos, that way I presume you could argue against anything that disagrees with your point of view by saying its the work of debunkers. [/b]

Well, if you're gonna automatically close your mind when someone questions your own logic, there's no point in having this conversation, because you've made up your mind no matter what happens.

 

[LetThereBeLight!]

Re: John Titor Update: Exclusive Report!

The only think Titor stated was providing for the possibility of time travel, and that is about all he did, even if he even did that when he posted!

"think" above post should be "thing", as in:
The only Thing Titor stated.........................

 

[Goodwin]

Re: John Titor Update: Exclusive Report!

"Yes, but by the rules of his story, it's explainable."


This then is the crux of the matter. And explains the polarizing effect the Titor story has on people.

What we have here is that someone has cleverly set up a Moebius loop of logic. All problems with 'Titor's' story are
explainable.

According to 'Titor' everything he says in terms of prediction is 'true' in his universe, but even when by the rules of our universe they prove 'false' they still (because he controls the rules) are deemed to be 'true.'

The question then is not one of proving the story 'false' as this cannot be done with the usual systems of logic. It is not in fact anything to do with reason at all. It is a question of faith. What do you believe?

So...you can either sit on the fence and say that your belief is that you are 'open minded' enough to consider that 'Titor' arrived here in the year 2000 in a time-travelling Chevrolet...that this may be 'true'...in other words accept his dictating the rules of the game as being perfectly fine.

Or: Take a side...find them so acceptable that you believe him to the point where you buy your "Titor was here" mug and T-shirt and start tooling up for the coming bloodshed.

Or: Take the other side...be skeptical enough in your beliefs to file it alongside 'Elvis Presley was a Martian' and the like (all very sensational but with no real substance whatsoever) on the basis that a similarly strong and cast-iron case can be made for that, or any number of other national enquirer stories, of infinite ridiculousness, too if you really put your mind to it. Nobody would ever be able to prove them ultimately 'false.'

All that remains then is to take your side and argue your case. And you're right about one thing - it is perhaps futile and pointless to argue against something you believe to be inherantly stupid. But I think the reason I do is because if some internet nut whose condemned my children to death actually develops a following, it becomes something altogether more sinister.

You sit on the fence if you like, all the way up to 2050 if need be. I think you'll find the problem with believing 'false' is 'true' and black is white is that it gets a bit confusing when asking someone how they like their coffee.

 

[Lagnar]

Re: John Titor Update: Exclusive Report!

"To remain apathetic is ensured enslavement." -- Milton William Cooper '89

"believe or don't believe..." (blah blah blah)

And yet there is another group which deserves mention here. There is the group who believes whole-heartedly neither "side", and who are simply waiting for further information to come in before they make their collective minds up. People who remarkably make a real effort to SEARCH for the truth, DO the research, TRY to make sense of it, and "Make up our minds" only after sufficient evidence is brought forth. We are the people who sit back and watch and listen to all the mindless babbling of the so-called 'activists' until it is abundantly clear who is correct - until it is so clear that either the debunkers or the believers become elementary intellects in their effort to convince anyone of anything, for they have neither the brain power nor the wisdom to convince themselves of their own delinquent or feeble mindsets. Don't get me wrong either way. If a threat is stated, we prepare, if only in our mind, for what must be done. Yet we will never completely deny any possibility based simply on the programming made abundant by our power elite. We still believe that we have yet to tap into a good percentage of our brains which leaves open opportunities and abilities as yet non-mainstream.

To believe in anything except utter truth or proven fact to the point that you are willing to fight or erroneously argue for said belief is utter lunacy and waste of time...simple insecure machismo or ego. To try to force one's opinion after clearly stating it is nothing save the behavior of the bumblebee at the picnic (minor irritation).

It couldn't be simpler...

...Present your subjective opinion. Present your subjective idea. Present ANY(!) objective research you've actually done. Present the objective truth...or present NOTHING and PAY ATTENTION to what others present, for mindless arguing (in the loosest sense of the word) presents nothing but your lack of intellect.

 

[RWPTRBL]

Re: John Titor Update: Exclusive Report!

Very well put Lagnar!!

 

[shane]

Re: John Titor Update: Exclusive Report!

Hey if you're so arrogant about your accusations, why don't you debunk JT's no WMD Iraq war prediction?

I predicted that as well, as anyone halfway aware of the global situation beyond the sensationalist media hype should have been able to. Iraq barely had the budget to keep a military around.

"Hey, guys, I just flew in from the future, and as it turns out, two and two make four."

"Wow! You're amazing!"

"Give me money."

"Sure!"

edit: I decided that I had to point out the following statements.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"\"Passive Extremist\"\")</div>

I know at timetravelportal.net, they have all JT's posts and I'm sure I could find it for you, I mean unless you think someone hacked into the message board archives and changed the dates..that's one elaborate hoaxer.[/b]

Here you state that it would be difficult for someone to alter the body of information regarding Titor, going so far as to imply that difficulty as an impossibility. The information supports your claim, so you hold it up as fact with no logical basis for doing so.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"\"Passive Extremist\"\")</div>

How do you know that information wasn't put in there by some JT debunkers? Can you prove it wasn't?[/b]

Here, in the same post, you imply that information regarding Titor could have been altered. This information disputes your beliefs, so you attempt to debunk its credibility through use of the same argument used to the opposite end previously.

Personally, I stand aside from this argument. I am not concerned by the question of John Titor being a time traveler or a hoaxer. However, I see many people in this argument not thinking, and that concerns me greatly.