John Titor Research Updates!

[Mudpuppy]

Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

Thanks for your response. I will address your questions.

First question:

Do you know this \"VirtualGirl\" in real life or are you just accepting her at face value?

Answer: I have had many \"live\" conversations on the telephone with Virtual. We have exchanged phone numbers, physical addresses, talked live for hours, and made plans to see each other this year. That is more \"physical\" contact than most internet people on this or any other forum have had. Have I met her face to face? No. Does that determine her credibility? Not in my eyes.

Second question:

If you don't know her in real life, do you ordinarily trust people who offer you firm conclusions about controversial subjects based on little or no real evidence?

Answer: No...I don't accept so called \"firm\" conclusions about any subject, controversial or not, based on little or no real evidence from anyone. I weigh and balance the information at hand along with my \"internal guidance system\" (intuition) to determine what I believe. I never said I believed it. We are investigating it. I played devil's advocate all night in the chat room with Virtual and Pam and brought up many of the same questions as you. We are all sorting this out together. We are not acting as if we are teams opposing each other. I think, in the end, while some of us hope the Titor sage is true, we are realistic enough, and mature enough, to accept the findings if they prove otherwise. Just because we want something to be true does not mean that we do not keep trying to find out the \"truth\". In fact, I think it is the \"believers\" who work harder to find the truth than the detractors. I did not fully accept the new piece of the puzzle whole heartedly. I asked questions, just like you. But the answers are still forthcoming, so I am suspending my pessimisism until more light is availed to us in the next day or two. Creating your own hypothesis on Virtual's discovery is not proof...merely conjecture. She has no concrete proof to tie it all together....on the other hand, what have you provided to prove otherwise? I suggest, if you are going to make the choice to come here and post and criticize then, as StarLord alluded to, the \"ball is in your court\". What concrete proof do you have to prove otherwise?

Third point:

I must have missed that part. Where in her post does she \"plainly point out\" that there is any doubt in her conclusion? \"

Yes, you missed that part.

If you think I'm incorrect, I am open to what you have to say. I think this is correct though.

Fourth point:

Pardon me but \"You must be delusional to think that such skimpy evidence would convince anyone\" is entirely appropriate in this case.

Perhaps the evidence is lacking, is calling someone \"delusional\" appropriate. Virtual could have been doing other things with her time. She, like many of us, works a full time job and has a family. She takes time and money out of the small pockets of time left over to do research on John Titor. If she is enthusiastic in her latest discovery, who are you to call her delusional? My question to you is not one of whether the information is solid......it is your attitude and apparent lack of interpersonal skills in posting your rebuttal. Could you not have said, as some have, that you simply didn't find her findings conclusive? Why do you feel the need to resort to name calling? Is that uplifting in anyway? Does that build up or tear down? Our internet community was inspired by a vision to enlighten and uplift. If you have no intention of doing that, then perhaps, you should post somewhere else where people thrive on dissention and chaos. Agreeing to disagree is another principle we are founded upon. Tearing people down, is not. I don't know how to put it any simpler. You seem very intelligent. I don't think I need to.

Fifth point:

\"Now is the time to put the old dog to rest\"? \"It's time to blow it wide open. And folks, you are hearing it here first. This is an exclusive!\"? \"I'm kinda glad it's over. It's been a long road\"?.

Virtual is enthusiastic and it is that wonderful trait that has led us to where we are now in putting the pieces of the Titor saga together. She didn't copy and post her earlier findings from other sites. She went out and dug and found the evidence on her own and posted it here.....others came here to read and posted her findings on their sites. All traits are double edged swords. If you sit in silence and think about it, you could probably say the same about yourself. You can't ask the sun to warm you but don't get above seventy degrees. It's been said that we condemn in others, those traits we can't stand in ourselves.

Sixth point:

Look at the evidence: one record in an online database that proves nothing, and a long-winded article about Disney that mentions neither Titor nor time travel nor a police state, civil war, nuclear war, not even micro singularities or CJD. The one and only thing about the article that intersects Titor's story (besides the fact they both have Florida somewhat in common, which we can safely disregard) is that they both involve the year 2036 in some way.

OK. This is more in the vein of which I was speaking. The evidence is this: Haber is connected to Disney by way of representing them. He is also connected to Titor's parents by way of representing them. If I am mistaken in that, then I stand corrected. So far, we have two sides to the triangle. We may be looking for the third side of the triangle that connects them all together. Because of Virtual's find, Haber's communication to Pam, may or may not do that. We are waiting to see. Until that time, here is another thing to ponder.....Haber is one of the most expensive attorneys in Florida. How could John's parents have possibly afforded him? Did someone with money (such as Disney help out financially?) Did John give them insider trading stocks so they would be set financially? Just a few questions raised in chat last night.

You might be comfortable with people trying to pull the wool over your eyes but I am not.

I am not comfortable with people pulling the wool over my eyes. Does it happen? Yes. That's the risk you take with you decide to trust people and not live a conspiratorial life. Do I feel the wool is being pulled over my eyes by Virtual. Is the Pope Jewish?

And \"VirtualGirl's conclusion here that \"John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report\" is so remote from reality on the basis of the evidence presented that you should easily recognize the attempt to manipulate your opinion.

The evidence thus far is inconclusive....but it is a continuous work in progress and something more than what you are providing....which, by the way, is zero. Why not post some of your findings here and join in the spirit of things.....build up...not tear down. [/quote]

You're not insulted when someone tries to manipulate you?

In the words of Eleanor Roosevelt, \"No one can walk on you like a doormat if you are not first lying down for them\".....I don't know the exact quote but that is the general meaning. No, I am not insulted because, 1} I'm not operating from my \"ego\". And 2) Like an adult, I take responsibility for all that happens to me...I don't seek to blame others for my woes. If the so called \"wool\" gets pulled over my eyes than I pick myself up, dust myself off, and thank the person for the lesson. I don't play the victim in life....thus, no need to feel manipulated by anyone.

Maybe you just LOVE George Bush Junior, in that case? Wake up and smell the coffee. Deceivers deserve exposure.

Must we drag Dubba into all of this?

Regards,

Kelley D.

 

[sinister]

Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

Mudpuppy,
nicely done.
I wish I had more "tenure" as it were here to totally bash on what NotAnArtBellImposter posted, but regardless I would have to agree that maybe VirtualGirl jumped the gun on this new evidence. I think if you look at her other evidence post, it is also some good research, and good evidence, but the problem I'm having is connecting it all to make one, solid, clear story. There should be, and there isn't. The Titor fan base has expanded pretty far, I think, and yet no one can truly debunk it. Physicists contacted by certain people on Anomalies have debunked the physics and engineering, but is not enough, simply because the very idea of a time traveller means that they could be utilizing any possible technology. I believe the infinite worldines theory, which I have come to subscribe to, definately allows for this. I once read that the two most recent, incredible discoveries in physics/mathematics have been 1) Quantum Physics and 2) Chaos Theory. And how were both of those discovered? By looking at the missing information in science and physics. Quantum physics I believe developed from looking at the orbit of Mercury, which moved unexplainably in older physics. Chaos theory, I believe, developed from looking at the unexplanable phenomenon of predicting the interactions between three or more planetary bodies. I may be wrong here, I'm pretty drunk, but my point is that physics and science in general is constantly rocked by new developments. And quite frankly, for what we can physically see in our current time, Titor has been dead on. The only development in time travel during our current years that Titor cited was CERN's activation of their Collider, and the development of microsingularities. We have to wait, of course, but CERN just recently confirmed they were on schedule, and it matches Titor's "predictions".
But here's the thing. Any evidence and info related to Titor should be studied. If we can somehow prove for sure that Titor was what he said he was, then we have some reporting to do. Do you realize how much good damning evidence pointing towards something could do? And if we somehow prove that Titor was false, well then we did our job as curious human beings. And if its somewhere in between (i've heard many talk about the 'government insider' theory), well then that just opens up nearly infinite possibilities. Yes, maybe VirtualGirl jumped the gun by saying the hoax was disproved, but I think I'm accurate in assuming that if she hadn't made such a bold statement, fewer people would read and react to the new evidence. If your eye was caught by this important finding, then what does it matter?

 

[Mudpuppy]

Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"sinister\")</div>

Mudpuppy,
nicely done.
I wish I had more \"tenure\" as it were here to totally bash on what NotAnArtBellImposter posted [/b]

If you have a valid point, no tenure is neccessary. Virtual posted her findings when she was but a wee lass here. Tenure here eQuals endurance....not intelligence. You seem to have both. By the way.....we are both standing at 91 posts while there are others here that are in the 2,000 plus bracket. While I respect my elders and their wisdom, that doesn't neccessarily apply based solely on posts. Feel free to say what you have to say.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"sinister\")</div>

Physicists contacted by certain people on Anomalies have debunked the physics and engineering, but is not enough, simply because the very idea of a time traveller means that they could be utilizing any possible technology. [/b]

Well, here is my take on all of this. I have read all the scientists' responses and thank Pam, Razimus and others for taking the time to contact them and share what they recieved. But Hawking just reversed his decision on black holes. Who ever thought that would ever happen. And one thing about scientists....I think these issues catch their interests and they do private research but they do not go public for fear of ridicule and losing their standing in the community. After all, they've been poo pooing Quantum phyics for eons....and they're still doing it. I wouldn't place my entire bet on what they say in public....even the great minds that have been contacted so far. I have alot of respect for them, have almost all of their material and know they know galaxies more about physics than I do. But something inside tells me, there is still more to be discovered and understood. Yes, Titor & Co. could be utilizing technology that we are only on the verge of discovering. So asking today's scientists, while very helpful in the short run, is not all conclusive in the long run. Today's science fiction is tomorrow's science fact. And I like to entertain the idea that John's stories today may be our future tomorrow. As of yet, I still don't know enough to say it isn't true. So I live as if it is, and will wait for the evidence to catch up. And if it doesn't, then where is the harm in having been prepared?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"sinister\")</div>

Mudpuppy,
I may be wrong here, I'm pretty drunk, but my point is that physics and science in general is constantly rocked by new developments. And quite frankly, for what we can physically see in our current time, Titor has been dead on. The only development in time travel during our current years that Titor cited was CERN's activation of their Collider, and the development of microsingularities. We have to wait, of course, but CERN just recently confirmed they were on schedule, and it matches Titor's \"predictions\". [/b]

Well, damn Sinister, if you can post all that while drunk......I can't wait to see what you add when you're sober.)

 

[sinister]

Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Mudpuppy\")</div>

Well, here is my take on all of this. ?I have read all the scientists responses and thank Pam, Razimus and others for taking the time to contact them and share what they recieved. ?But Hawking just reversed his decision on black holes. ?Who ever thought that would happen? ?Who knows what other decisions will be reversed and what CERN may discover in the future concerning microsingularities? ?It's not over till the fat lady sings. ?I respect those scientist, but do I think they have all the answers? ?No. ?Einstien even admitted he didn't have them all...conceded that he was wrong about some things....One day science and religion, I surmise, will meet in the middle and stop throwing stones at each other, and discover that they've believed the same thing all along. ?Sorry...I'm digressing. ?Yes, they could be utilizing technology that we are only on the verge of discovering. ?So asking today's scientists, while very helpful in the short run, is not all conclusive in the long run. ?Today's science fiction is tomorrow's science fact. ?And I like to entertain the idea that John's stories today may be our future tomorrow. ?As of yet, I still don't know enough to say it isn't true. ?So I live as if it is, and will wait for the evidence to catch up. ?And if it doesn't, then where is the harm in having been prepared?[/b]

Yes I remember hearing about Hawking's switch on his black hole theory. Things constantly change, and we can only expect science to tell us exactly what they know.
Everyone I care about, honestly, I have clued in to the whole John Titor thing. Some were really skeptical, which I pretty much predicted, and some took to it as strongly as I have. Its true at least that whether you believe Titor or not, if all he said truly does come to pass, at least we'll all know. Pretty quickly I think too. And what you summed up with is exactly what I meant. Evidence has to come in and analyzed for us to catch up.

 

[Not An Art Bell Imposter]

Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

Mudpuppy, thanks for diligently answering my questions, much appreciated. Is the "Q" key on your keyboard broken?

I see now, "VirtualGirl" qualified her "John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report" statements later on, not in her original post. Good thing it was in the same topic at least or I might have never found it.

Enthusiasm is a worthy trait but when used to leap to unwarranted conclusions it can make its bearer appear "delusional", which may be what happened here. I would think that after so much time spent studying and analyzing Titor as you say you all have, everyone involved would be at least a little bit careful about leaping to conclusions on the skimpiest of evidence or no real evidence at all. It seems a reasonable assumption that you must be aware of the many scammers and imposters of various stripes that have tried to exploit Titor's story, and you must have observed for yourself by now the unusual intensity of his debunkers. Haven't you already seen people summarily declaring that Titor's a hoaxer without any real evidence? So how on earth does one of your own fall into the same trap and you don't even call her on it?

Digging for new information is great but don't you think that "VirtualGirl" should edit her original post, especially including its title, to qualify her statements to the effect that the new information she's posted really doesn't prove anything? It doesn't even provide the slightest evidence toward proving Titor a hoaxer. Yet now there will be debunkers all over the web successfully deflecting the interest of people mildly interested in Titor by claiming that this topic "proves" Titor a hoaxer, and I think that would be pretty irresponsible to condone. Many people aren't going to read that whole irrelevant Disney article but will scroll a little ways down it and conclude that it must support what "VirtualGirl" says or she wouldn't have posted it, and then off they will go somewhere else, thinking Titor has been successfully debunked and they can stop thinking about what he had to say. And ignoring what Titor had to say is not what this country needs at this time. So if you are a group of friends as you say you are and you have any influence with "VirtualGirl", I hope you will ask her to restore your group's integrity by suitably editing her first post that people will see when they view this topic. (I have seen "edited" notes on some posts but so far haven't been able to find a way to edit mine, is there a secret button somewhere?)

You asked me to contribute something positive to the discussion, so I will (even though by pointing out that the stated topic of this thread is invalid and Titor remains undebunked, I think I already have). First however I want to balance the positive with a negative: I think there is presently far too much effort focused on attempting to prove Titor genuine or phony, because it is very unlikely that such efforts are going to prove fruitful anytime soon and because it distracts from something far more important. Many people have spent years trying with nobody succeeding, and the chances of new evidence coming to light are very slim. (The Intelius database record and the Disney article are not serious evidence at all, though they might possibly merit a footnote in a longer work exposing the John Titor Foundation scammers.) In their obsession over trying to establish whether he was genuine or not, people are letting time pass by that will never be regained, and as time goes by we are apparently getting closer and closer to the future Titor predicted. Whether Titor was genuine or not we may not know for a while, but it is becoming abundantly clear that America is moving rapidly toward a police state under George Bush Junior. And yes, unpleasant as he is, Bush is very relevant to any discussion about Titor for this reason, even though Titor does not have to have been genuine in order for Bush to turn America into a police state. In relative terms, debating whether Titor was genuine or not is trivial compared to the threat Bush poses to American freedoms, and distraction by the trivial inhibits actions that might improve our futures, including keeping our freedoms and even our lives.

Now for the positive: far more important than debunking or proving Titor is realizing the great gift of hope that he gave us when he explained that we have the capability to shape our own future, even though he said we probably wouldn't do things much differently than his own worldline did. If we just all sit around on our hands chatting about minor confusing distractions like Haber and Disney, Titor's expectation for our blindly materialistic culture will very likely come true -- at least the police state part of it, because we are so clearly halfway there already. This should be something that almost all of us, except for a few fanatic right-wingers, would want to avoid. We have an opportunity to change the direction our country is going BY LEVERAGING THE WORDS OF TITOR and making more people aware of them. It doesn't ultimately matter if Titor was genuine or not, but it does matter a great deal that America not become a police state.

On the John Titor UK list ([email protected]; contact [email protected]) I've recently suggested a project called the John Titor Snowball Project, to make more people aware of Titor while there is still time to alter the course we are on. It's very simple, and that's to post in forums everywhere about Titor so that more and more people learn about him. Then tell the other people participating in the project where you posted so they can go back you up.

There is the possibility that the inspiration Titor has given some of us will be infective enough that Titor's meme will spread (the "snowball" effect) and we'll manage to alter our future constructively. We have a mass-murdering war criminal for a president, if ever there is a possibility to improve things by removing him from office, it needs to be initiated before he declares martial law. But that window of opportunity is very likely to close sometime soon. It doesn't matter if Titor was genuine or not! You are wasting your time if all you are doing with your knowledge of Titor is trying to examine minutae to determine if he is genuine or not! The important thing is to alter our worldline for the better, because if we don't succeed in doing that we are doomed.

Regards,

Karl S.
http://johntitor.strategicbrains.com

 

[Not An Art Bell Imposter]

Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"virtualgirl\")</div>

... You should take the time to go into the archives and read the rest of my research. [/b]

"Go into the archives" where? I did a site search on "VirtualGirl" and didn't find anything very remarkable. How about a short outline-style summary of what you've found, maybe with some links to the full stories behind each? I am interested in Titor-related research, I just have a pet peeve against jumping to unsupported conclusions, as you may have noticed. But if you have any real evidence I would like to learn about it.

Regards,

Karl S.
http://johntitor.strategicbrains.com

 

[Not An Art Bell Imposter]

Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Not An Art Bell Imposter\")</div>

(I have seen \"edited\" notes on some posts but so far haven't been able to find a way to edit mine, is there a secret button somewhere?)[/b]

Oh, NOW the edit button shows up. I swear it wasn't there before. I know it wasn't there before when I looked for it. Maybe I was stuck for a while in an alternate universe without edit buttons? :blush:

 

[EZ4u2BArtBell]

Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

Stated By 'Not An Art Bell Imoposter'emphasis mine)
"Now for the positive: far more important than debunking or proving Titor is realizing the great gift of hope that he gave us when he explained that we have the capability to shape our own future (snip)'

This is an excellent point. Science fiction predictions of night mare cultures of the future, such as Georg Orwell's 1984 and in part, Titor's thought's, are expressions of a 'Doomsday' type fear. So are the fears of government taking over, big business taking over, communism taking over, and so on. Any prediction of a rigid authoritarian takeover is a projection of this type fear.

Titor gave us a lot of things to consider. Some horrible and some quite inspiring. 'Not An Art Bell Imoposter', made the point to say "Now for the positive". That is just what we need to be!

Negative thoughts about our unknown future can put forth negative results. It is far more productive to look at Titor and his stance on our future, optimistically, and plan for the coming times.

Just a thought,

Travis


By-The-Way, hello all! This is my first post here, altho I have been a lurker for a long time.

 

[StarLord]

Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Not An Art Bell Imposter\")</div>

Titor's story has stood the test of time against various frivolous and even serious attempts to debunk it. \"VirtualGirl\" presented a very frivolous attempt here but acted as if her mind was made up, and everyone else's should be too. (\"Now is the time to put the old dog to rest.\")

Failure to debunk is not proof however that the story is NOT a hoax, it is merely failure to debunk, and Titor's story remains falsifiable. It hasn't been falsified nor is there conclusive proof yet for the opposite case that Titor was genuine. But if Steven Hawking for example had written a paper that incorporated Titor's plausible design and operating principles for a time machine, it would be taken very seriously in the scientific community and somebody would almost certainly be assembling the hardware and software for it already, in preparation for the production of microsingularities that many scientists fully expect to be created at CERN soon. Titor's time machine design and operating principles alone are compelling but not conclusive evidence of his veracity.

As all previous attempts to debunk Titor's story have failed, and there is no rock-solid conclusive proof at this time that his story was true, we are all left with the uncertainty of waiting to see if his predictions come true. Certainly the occurrence or non-occurrence of global nuclear war in 2015 will settle the issue once and for all, but we would probably all like to know sooner than that. Titor predicted that the global nuclear war would be preceded by an American police state and civil war, and very many people see the beginnings of a police state emerging already under the extreme right-wing leadership of George Bush Junior. None of us could have seriously imagined in 2000 that America would be operating concentration camps at several places around the world and incarcerating people indefinitely without due process in violation of every American value and principle of justice, but concentration camps and police states do go hand in hand, do they not? None of us could have seriously imagined in 2000 that a gross miscarriage of American values and principles would be passed into law (with the Orwellian name 'Patriot Act') to vastly expand police powers of invading people's privacy and kicking doors down, but Titor did tell us something like this was going to happen, and here we are with the fact of it on the books in Washington. Titor even suggested back then that the falsehood of WMDs in Iraq would be BS to whip up people's fears so they'd support the next war, and who among us would have guessed in 2000 that such a disgraceful thing would or could be done by an American president? The apparent emergence of an American police state with such specific examples being true is an awfully amazing prediction that nobody else did predict or would have predicted in the year before 9/11/2001. Since it is possible that someone could have simply guessed these things would happen, they are not conclusive evidence but they are compelling evidence in favor of Titor's story being true.

A reasonable person cannot reject Titor's story in the face of such compelling evidence. There are many proto-Fascist right-wingers who will argue otherwise, but they are not reasonable people, they are the ones in favor of a goose-stepping police state in the first place. Are you in favor of an American police state, \"StarLord\"? Are you in favor of America operating concentration camps, murdering and torturing people, lying about terrorist intentions in the form of WMDs to justify foreign invasions, 1,600+ American soldiers dead so far and unknown tens of thousands of dead Afghanis and Iraqis including many women and children killed all because of George Bush Junior's lies and misadventures? When Hitler and his henchmen did these exact same kinds of things they were eventually tried and punished for their war crimes.

What do you think, \"Starlord\", was Hitler misunderstood? Was Hitler really a good guy, a patriot whose concentration camps and wars of aggression and taking away people's rights and liberties were really all good and constructive things for Germany and the rest of the world? Just wondering what you think about that, because I see great similarities today between George Bush Junior and his policies and Hitler and his policies. And I know I am not alone in this view, the only difference is that Hitler got farther along than Bush has so far. Titor's story merely puts the emphasis on so far.

For perspective you might want to consider another question similar to yours about Titor (\"What have you offered to prove that Titor is NOT a hoax?\"). Let's say it's 1935 and someone going by the name of John Titor has told you that Hitler will go on to become the biggest mass murderer in history by systematically exterminating millions of his countrymen, that Hitler would turn Germany into a police state and threaten the rest of the world with unprovoked wars of aggression, what would you offer to prove that John Titor is a hoax?

Regards,

Karl S.
http://johntitor.strategicbrains.com[/b]

Sorry Duder, you have still not offered anything viable to support titor being real. I also find it interesting that you would stoop to childish taunting and inane examples of red herrings that hold about as much water as a flat rock in the middle of the desert. Bringing Hitler into this in support of your argument only demeans you and does nothing for your cause. What you offer is circumstantial at best.

Any one that took the time could see that those folks that comprise titor have govt connections, most possibly in 'think-tank' sections where 'future' computer generated senarios are a day to day business for them. You might also notice, Homey, that there may also be someone connected to psyops where public manipulation is the faire du jour.

If you never figured out that you couldn't trust bushco by watching the father in action, then I really feel sorry for you.

So, did you have something seriouly constructive to offer or were you content to rattle the bushes saber and waste your time pushing age old trite excuses for credence?

 

[Mudpuppy]

Re: John Titor Is A Hoax Exclusive Report

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Not An Art Bell Imposter\")</div>

Mudpuppy, thanks for diligently answering my questions, much appreciated. Is the \"Q\" key on your keyboard broken? [/b]

Yes. To be exact, my kitty used my laptop for a scratching post. I tried to superglue the keys back to avoid paying for a replacement keypad from Dell. I didn't get "Q" glued tight enough and he ate it. I tried to copy and paste the letter "Q" from your post but in the long run it was too late and I was too tired to copy and paste all those cues and was hoping everyone could read between the lines. I forgot to spell check the first time and there doesn't seem to be a spell check available in the edit frame. I also, massively screwed up my uote tags but somehow I had reached my edit limit or edit time out and have to get permission from the administrator to fix them.