John Titor's Non-lethal Weapon

[Judge Bean]

JT's non lethal weopon...

Perhaps she can't believe she is reading an apparently unconscious discussion of the acceptable violation of human rights?

 

[HuntTech]

JT's non lethal weopon...

Originally posted by Paul J. Lyon@Oct 17 2004, 06:09 PM
Perhaps she can't believe she is reading an apparently unconscious discussion of the acceptable violation of human rights?

​

Yes, I would think that's the unbelievable point. There's always been this push-pull between law enforcement and the courts (which are supposedly protecting our civil liberties). Law enforcement pushes for more and more 'rights' to do things to better be able to do their job and the courts pull back and slap down on what they want in order to protect us from being trampled.

We can all formulate arguments pro or con for implanting markers in a person... but I think it comes down to one thing: How would I feel being forced to implant a sub-dermal tracking device? No freakin' way... I would rather hack off my arm once it is in place. (OK... OK... I'd be more likely to attempt a cleaner removal, but you get the point!)

Look for a media push talking about the pros of such a device. I can see it now... 'It's like a SpeedPass for your person!' - 'You'll no longer have to fumble with your credit cards or real money!' - 'Stores will automatically recognize your buying patterns and your tastes!' - 'Just pick up what you want and walk out! The RFID tags on the merchandise will work in concert with your implant and ring you up!' Look for a sugar-coated view of such a device... almost making the American consumer want such a thing! You might be surprised at how many people would sign up!

Then, the dark side *must* nag at you. Heck, we'll be seasoned to the idea because of the great things that are being done in the fight against crime with the things. We'd hear how our medical information is more easily accessible and 'always with us' because of the wonderous device. I ask you this... if law enforcement is allowed to implant folks with these within the scope of a single crime investigation, will they track down the individual and remove it after that investigation is over or will they leave it in 'just in case'? Will the use of it spread to 'potential participants' and not only the criminal? I can see the law enforcement argument that it might be valuable to 'know' where the girlfriends or family members of a supposed criminal are at all times... to look for patterns of contact. That makes me ill.

Then, could this be 'secretly done' like some wiretaps? Can a judge eventually give law enforcement the right to 'secretly' implant a device?

Think about it... 'Whew! I didn't think I drank that much last night! I must have passed out. Who was that cute girl that was talking to me? Why does my arm itch and what's that red spot? Dang mosquitos!'

Mosquitos, indeed.

 

[Unintentional]

JT's non lethal weopon...

Hey, if we are going to do this whole "book of revolution thing" at least some people are going to have to go ahead and get the mark of the beast.

Now in the bible, book of revelations, it says that no commerce will be able to be done without the mark of the beast either in their forearm or forehead. Where will this "verichip" go?

 

[Judge Bean]

JT's non lethal weopon...

OK, relax. The point worth making here is that a distinction should not be made between citizen and noncitizen when it comes to the government of this or any other country deciding to go ahead and brand or tattoo or implant "suspects," who are, you know, already guilty and punishable according to "law enforcement."

It's not up to the police to decide who is worthy of rights, or basic decency. The Constitution, you know, does not protect the rights of only those who happen to be citizens, but any who might fall under the jurisdiction of our authorities, including "illegal immigrants" and "enemy aliens."

Let's not drag in all that arcane, irrelevant Book of Revelation stuff, either, please. You don't need ancient indecipherable prophecies to tell you that your privacy and dignity are at stake in the modern world, especially in light of the fact that the government is now engaged in a campaign to squelch your rights. If Jesus returns, I stand corrected. Meanwhile, let's trust what we know is good and right and keep our ammunition dry.

There isn't one in ten Americans who would permit the implantation you describe. But there seems to be at least 5 or 6 in ten who would let the government implant "others." This hypocrisy worries me more than the Day of Judgment.

 

[HuntTech]

JT's non lethal weopon...

Originally posted by Paul J. Lyon@Oct 17 2004, 10:14 PM
<snip>

It's not up to the police to decide who is worthy of rights, or basic decency. The Constitution, you know, does not protect the rights of only those who happen to be citizens, but any who might fall under the jurisdiction of our authorities, including \"illegal immigrants\" and \"enemy aliens.\"

<snip>

There isn't one in ten Americans who would permit the implantation you describe. But there seems to be at least 5 or 6 in ten who would let the government implant \"others.\" This hypocrisy worries me more than the Day of Judgment.

It wasn't my point that it was up to the police. My point is that the police or other law enforcement agencies would ask for the use of such devices. I think the 'slippery slope' argument is valid here. Honestly.

You illustrate my point with your last statement: "... But there seems to be at least 5 or 6 in ten who would let the government implant 'others'." That's what I mean by law enforcement asking for the use and justifying it by tracking criminals... and convincing a handful of local authorities / judges to grant the use. They certainly wouldn't be deciding to use it on themselves... but on criminals as stated by law enforcement. There wasn't a time too long ago where wiretaps seemed like a tactic that should never be allowed. It's a common tool now.

For the record, I didn't mention Revelations.

Anyway, I'll drop it... but I thought it a valid thread of thought in light of the recent political atmosphere.

 

[Darkwolf]

JT's non lethal weopon...

I think maby I wasn't clear about what I meant. As to implanting caputred terrorists to see where they go, it isn't a law enforcement matter. It is the military's job to protect us from forign threats. Unfortunatly the people they are fighting now don't stand up and fight by the "rules" They are willing to use any dirty trick they can to kill us. I think it would be best if the military were to root out and end the threat as quickly as possible. If that means doing something a little underhanded to some forign terrorists, fine. The sooner this thing ends, the less of an excuse the government has to undermine our rights here.

Mr. Nickol's tracker was part of a bond agreement, not an investigation. He had already been arrested, araigned and charged. He was technically still in custody. I said that was a grey area. The courts had every right to keep him locked up. instead he agreed to being tracked. (considering the charges I'm shocked that they even let him bond out)
That may not be a rights violation, however, putting a tracer in somone who is mearly under investigation would be an unacceptable one. Putting them in the population at large must never be allowed to happen.
Phil

 

[Judge Bean]

JT's non lethal weopon...

In answer to your statements, Wolf:

I think maby I wasn't clear about what I meant. As to implanting caputred terrorists to see where they go, it isn't a law enforcement matter. It is the military's job to protect us from forign threats.

The whole operation is run as a criminal investigation and execution of open warrants-- police procedure-- performed by the military. In recent years, the government has persisted in blending the military and the police. Whenever a broad attempt is made to suppress rights, those in power need the tool of a domestic paramilitary "state police" force. Read your modern history. The framers of the Constitution could barely stomach the idea of a standing army for this very reason.

Unfortunatly the people they are fighting now don't stand up and fight by the "rules" They are willing to use any dirty trick they can to kill us. I think it would be best if the military were to root out and end the threat as quickly as possible. If that means doing something a little underhanded to some forign terrorists, fine. The sooner this thing ends, the less of an excuse the government has to undermine our rights here.

History will also show you that it is never a good idea to give the military this illusory "temporary" power to conduct police activity without restraint. We simply cannot give the armed forces the license to suspend the rights of those arrested and accused simply because officers have chosen to. Remember that in a democracy, authority is exercised in your behalf and in your name. To permit "underhanded" exercise of authority is to permit the government to do what it deems expedient or necessary for its own ends-- more and more not our ends; more and more their own ends. Not for one moment does the government get an "excuse" to undermine our rights. It doesn't know the limits, and doesn't want them.

Mr. Nickol's tracker was part of a bond agreement, not an investigation. He had already been arrested, araigned and charged. He was technically still in custody. I said that was a grey area. The courts had every right to keep him locked up. instead he agreed to being tracked. (considering the charges I'm shocked that they even let him bond out)
That may not be a rights violation, however, putting a tracer in somone who is mearly under investigation would be an unacceptable one. Putting them in the population at large must never be allowed to happen.

Being "merely under investigation," "arrested, arraigned and charged," and "locked up" prior to conviction are all of equal status to the provision of rights under the fundamental Constitutional rule of the presumption of innocence. The government does not get to make you a little more guilty once it simply has you under arrest. If you believe that "putting them in the population at large" is wrong, then you must understand that putting them in anyone is wrong. A terrorist is not a terrorist just because the government calls him one (as it is painfully learning daily while watching its cases against accused detainees go south).

 

[Darkwolf]

JT's non lethal weopon...

The whole operation is run as a criminal investigation and execution of open warrants-- police procedure-- performed by the military. In recent years, the government has persisted in blending the military and the police.

I think we are kind of coming at the same problem from different angles. I have a huge problem with the military being used as a police force for two reasons. First, the military is supposed to fight wars, thats it. If they are bound by police procedures they are severely handicapped. We didn't for instance worry about the guilt or innocence of the people of Dresden. We simply found an enemy industrial center and destroyed it. That was nessisary, and if we had not done things like that they eventually have been done to us. The same should apply to Al-Quida if we are indeed fighting a war on terror and not just screwing around. Our soldiers should find their nests by whatever means nessisary, hit hard and fast, and leave nothing but bodies and brass behind. That is war.
Secondly, it does seem that by making them practice by psudo police rules, the military is being trained and adjusted to be used against a civillian population.. wonder who'se.

History will also show you that it is never a good idea to give the military this illusory \"temporary\" power to conduct police activity without restraint. We simply cannot give the armed forces the license to suspend the rights of those arrested and accused simply because officers have chosen to.

I agree totally. But as I said I really wish the people in charge would get the difference between enemy and criminal.

Not for one moment does the government get an \"excuse\" to undermine our rights. It doesn't know the limits, and doesn't want them.

No arguments here. Unfortunatly the government went past it's limits decades ago, and now the few of us who know it are really wondering how to stop the freight train.

Being \"merely under investigation,\" \"arrested, arraigned and charged,\" and \"locked up\" prior to conviction are all of equal status to the provision of rights under the fundamental Constitutional rule of the presumption of innocence. The government does not get to make you a little more guilty once it simply has you under arrest

Well, thats why I said it was a grey area. People who are out on bond are technically still in the custody of the courts, and or a bondsman. Thats kind of nessisary to a criminal court system. Care must be taken that the accused doesn't take an extended vacation to costa rica or something. Nickols was faced with what ...260 counts of acessory to first degree murder. Bit of a flight risk woulden't you say?
Phil

 

[StarLord]

JT's non lethal weopon...

It was my first impression, when I heard about a "smart card" credit card, that it was a very bad idea due to the chip in it, who knows what info it has AND where detectors in stores may be located. We all know about Dept Stores that have sensors to pick up tags that have not been cleared or wiped clean of their charge, has anyone heard about the similar type chips that are secreted in certain products that identify them and when they leave the shelf and then when they actuaqlly leave the store? I believe the first glimpse was in the UK if I am not mistaken.

You also may know that those gates in Airports that we walk through that are searching for "metals" are also sensitive to the metal threads in a large amounts of Cash, thats current security scuttlebutt but has not been confirmed, who is to say there is not a similar device to record the passage of veri chips as you enter and leave a Airport? Those machines are sensitive enought to pick up the pseudo gold foil in cigarette packages. Not much metal there.

I would not put it past the Govt to install chips into those special "Worker ID Cards" for aliens along the border. They have done worse in the name of our protection.

 

[CaryP]

JT's non lethal weopon...

What about the new "standardized" drivers licenses? The new national identity card. Yeeha. Uni, you can have my turn and take my implanted chip, since you're so "far" them.

Cary