John Titor's Non-lethal Weapon

keylempa

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JT's non lethal weopon...

interesting... http://sports.excite.com/news/10222004/v5731.html

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Oct 22, 5:04 PM (ET)
^Boston mayor weighs alcohol limits after Red Sox fan dies from police projectile<
BOSTON (AP) - Mayor Thomas Menino said he was considering banning alcohol sales near Fenway Park during the World Series, following rowdy celebrations of the Red Sox's league championship that turned deadly when a police officer shot a projectile into a crowd.
Menino planned to meet with bar and nightclub owners Friday and also said he would press colleges to expel students found guilty of criminal conduct in the melee.
"Since people won't accept responsibility, I, as mayor, will take it into my own hands," Menino said.
Emerson College student Victoria Snelgrove, 21, died Thursday, hours after being hit in the eye with what was designed to be a non-lethal projectile that would douse the target with a pepper-like spray. Her father expressed outrage at the city's response to her death.

Witnesses said Snelgrove was standing outside the ballpark when a reveler threw a bottle at a mounted police officer. Another officer fired the plastic, pepper-spray filled balls into the crowd, hitting Snelgrove.
Fifteen other people, including a police officer, suffered minor injuries in Boston's Kenmore Square neighborhood near Fenway Park after thousands of baseball fans spilled onto the streets to celebrate the Red Sox triumph Wednesday night at New York's Yankee Stadium. Small fires were set and fights broke out. Boston police reported eight arrests, mostly for disorderly conduct.
Menino said that to avoid a repeat of the rowdiness in his city, he was considering imposing the alcohol-sales ban through a state law never before used in Boston. The law lets him ban sale or distribution of alcohol "in cases of riot or great public excitement."
He said he may also ask bar and restaurant operators not to let television stations broadcast live scenes from inside their establishments during games, as at least one station did Wednesday.
Peter Martineau, manager of Boston Beer Works, across from Fenway Park, expressed sympathy for Snelgrove's family but blamed area college students for causing the problems.
"They all want to come out to the Fenway for the excitement," he said. "I don't think the remedy is banning bars and restaurants from serving liquor. If you can't serve beer or anything, why would people come out? It's a beer works."
Officials said the projectiles are not supposed to be aimed at people's faces, and Police Commissioner Kathleen O'Toole said she would "firmly and emphatically accept responsibilities for any errors."
But, she continued, "I also condemn in the harshest words possible the actions of the punks (Wednesday) night who turned our city's victory into an opportunity for violence and mindless destruction."
The student's father, Rick Snelgrove, said angrily that she did nothing wrong. Standing outside the family home, he held up a photograph of his smiling daughter.
"What happened to her should not happen to any American citizen going to any type of game, no matter what," he said. "She loved the Red Sox. She went in to celebrate with friends. She was a bystander. She was out of the way, but she still got shot. Awful things happen to good people. My daughter was an exceptional person."
City officials had announced there would be a heavy police presence in Kenmore Square for the history-making victory by the Red Sox, who came back from 3 games to zero deficit to advance to the World Series.
The city had been caught understaffed when riots broke out after the New England Patriots' Super Bowl win Feb. 1, when one person was killed and another critically injured by a vehicle that plowed into revelers.
 

Darkwolf

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JT's non lethal weopon...

This is interasting for two reasons. First it is an example of a less lethal weapon turning out to be lethal. It was not clear from the article wether the weapon was a standard pepperball fired from a standard paintball gun (of course they buy thousand dollar "special" ones rather than going to wall mart or the local paintball store and saving us some money, but thats a whole nother can of worms) or a pepper round fired from a shotgun. A pepperball is classified as a nonlethal weapon, if it was that then what happened was a one in a thousand chance accident. Regrettable, and the cop shoulden't have shot at head level, but according to the training they give, it shoulden't kill anyone. A pepper round fired from a shotgun however is classified as less lethal not non lethal and should not have been discharged into a crowd at all, much less at head level. These less lethal rounds are ment to knock someone down who absolutly has to go down RIGHT NOW. They are the last step before shooting somone and are only supposed to be used in extremely dire circumstances.
The other point about the whole thing is the speed at which the mayor was willing to at least talk about suspending the rights of law abiding citizens to enjoy a beer. (at the world series nonetheless thats @$$%$#% unamerican) Beacause of a tragidy. A tragidy nonetheless that was caused by the incompetence of one of their officers.
So now when a couple of people screw up all of us lose rights. Thats an alarming precident. If a city mayor can take away the right to buy and sell beer beacause of something like this, what can the feds take away after the first violent protest over ohhhh... say a messed up election.
Shudder.
Phil
 

keylempa

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JT's non lethal weopon...

I heard that the police were firing those rubber bullets into a crowd and one of them accidentally hit the girl in the eye and went into her skull through the opening. SOunds like an accident (and it probably was) but it just goes to show you that their non lethal tactics can easily become lethal.
 

Darkwolf

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713
JT's non lethal weopon...

I've heard three different versions of what weapon was used on three different networks. Sounds like the beurocrats are playing squid. Running for cover squirting ink.
 

Judge Bean

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JT's non lethal weopon...

Sometimes these are called "less-than-lethal weapons." Whatever the euphemism, a weapon (as the police so frequently tell us when they shoot someone for wielding a 2X4) is a weapon.

When you are an officer or a soldier and you fire a weapon at an American citizen, you'd better be damned sure you're doing it for a damned good reason-- for the defense of yourself or others when there is a threat to safety, not to property. Otherwise, it could be taken as an example of violent oppression.

Welcome to Boston sportsfans.
 

Timmy G

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JT's non lethal weopon...

I believe the term "Non-Lethal Weapon" is the true definition of an 'oxymoron'.

oxymoron n : conjoining contradictory terms (as in `deafening silence')

I find it hard to believe that any weapon can be non lethal. I'm sure if you dig around, you can find peeps who have died from all sorts of 'non-lethals'. Rubber Bullets, Pepper Balls, Tazer's, etc. etc. etc.

Here's an interesting clip from an article about America's non-lethal :huh: weapons.
In March, as is usual with non-classified studies by the NAS, they were deposited with the academy's Public Access Records Office, and their titles were released. "These documents are supposed to be public," says Ed Hammond of the Sunshine Project, a group campaigning against biological weapons. When he asked the records office to see 77 of the documents, it agreed to hand them over.

"But two days later the NAS pulled the documents," says Hammond. "Kevin Hale, the NAS security officer, told me it was because someone had expressed concern." Who did so is not clear. The pressure for the clampdown does not appear to have come from the JNLWP itself, because last week it sent Hammond eight documents he had requested, including three on the NAS list.
Here's the link to that 2002 report at NewScientist.com: US non-lethal weapon reports suppressed
 

Darkwolf

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713
JT's non lethal weopon...

There are three basic classifications of law enforcement weapons.

Non lethal. Pepperspray, Tear gas, pepperballs, tazers ect. You are not supposed to be able to kill anyone with these. Freak accidents do happen but for the most part you could use these on thousands of healthy people and they would all be unhappy but suffer no lasting dammage.

Less lethal (not less than lethal) Baton, Beanbag rounds for shotguns, rubber bullets, stun grenades, vomit gas ect. With these you stand a pretty good chance of killing your subject, but you probably won't if you use the weapon EXACTLY the way you are supposed to. (no head shots with rubber bullets for instance) These you use only when you have justification to kill somone or at least close. These can leave lasting dammage, and can somtimes kill even when used properly. They are not to be used lightly.

Lethal Guns, baton strikes to the head, grenades, tank rounds, pyrotechnically launched tear gas that releases cyanide when burned, neuclear bombs. Self explanatory. Only to be used when the officer's life or the life of another is in immediate danger, and lesser levels of force won't work.

I really don't see where the boston cops had the justification to use what they did, but then again, I wasn't there.
Phil
 

Judge Bean

Senior Member
Messages
1,257
JT's non lethal weopon...

Originally posted by Darkwolf@Oct 25 2004, 04:22 AM
There are three basic classifications of law enforcement weapons.

Non lethal. Pepperspray, Tear gas, pepperballs, tazers ect. You are not supposed to be able to kill anyone with these. Freak accidents do happen but for the most part you could use these on thousands of healthy people and they would all be unhappy but suffer no lasting dammage.

Less lethal (not less than lethal) Baton, Beanbag rounds for shotguns, rubber bullets, stun grenades, vomit gas ect. ?With these you stand a pretty good chance of killing your subject, but you probably won't if you use the weapon EXACTLY the way you are supposed to. (no head shots with rubber bullets for instance) These you use only when you have justification to kill somone or at least close. These can leave lasting dammage, and can somtimes kill even when used properly. They are not to be used lightly.

Lethal Guns, baton strikes to the head, grenades, tank rounds, pyrotechnically launched tear gas that releases cyanide when burned, neuclear bombs. Self explanatory. Only to be used when the officer's life or the life of another is in immediate danger, and lesser levels of force won't work.

I really don't see where the boston cops had the justification to use what they did, but then again, I wasn't there.
Phil


A weapon is a weapon is a weapon. Don't shoot at my family with one of these things, I don't care what you call it.
 

Darkwolf

Active Member
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713
JT's non lethal weopon...

A weapon is a weapon is a weapon. Don't shoot at my family with one of these things, I don't care what you call it.

I woulden't dream of it Paul. At least where I work those things are only used on people who are trying to harm others. You don't strike me as that type.
Phil
 

CaryP

Senior Member
Messages
1,432
JT's non lethal weopon...

grenades, tank rounds, pyrotechnically launched tear gas that releases cyanide when burned, neuclear bombs

Uh, Darkwolf. These are certainly lethal, but are they used by regular law enforcement on criminals? I would think these kinds of weapons are restricted to military use in battlefield conditions. Any clarification would be appreciated. If police are allowed these weapons in law enforcement, we passed the Rubicon a long time ago.

Cary
 

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