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JREF - Million Dollar Challenge
- Thread starter Whitelight
- Start date
dimensiongoblinking
New Member
Re: JREF - Million Dollar Challenge
I tell you what, I just finished reading the whole damn debate. My eyes don't hurt but my side does from laughing.I have also watched some footage of good old James Randi. I am going to have to go ahead and agree with cmac 100%. First off did everybody watch these videos? Did you notice on a few that he had what appeared to be a little figurine of himself next to the spinning globe. Who has a figurine of themselves behind themself while being videotaped? Apparently someone who has a little bit of an ego. With this little settup on the shelf behind him, was he implying that he is what makes the world go around? I don't think so. This guy has no freaking idea about the world. Is it really true that this challenge is going to be done with? So what happens to the million bones? Does it become James Randi's retirement fund? Really what it comes down to is JR is a cheap bastard. It seems to me that all this contest was, was one big publicity stunt for the JREF. It goes without saying at this point, that James Randi is a joke.
As for Harte, I don't believe we have meet. Pretty much I'd have to say you lost this one. All of your arguments were blown out of the universe by cmac without a doubt. I don't even know why you bothered trying. It's all most as if you work for the JREF and were sent here as a spy. How's that for a conspiracy theory ladies and gentlemen.
I'm sure there are people that exist that could win this joke of a contest. And for whatever reason they are not even attempting. A lot of people that have psychic abilities make a vow not use their abilities for major personal gain. A lot of people don't know about the contest I'm sure. It's not like there are comercials about it on a major network. I only knew about it by word of mouth and that was just recently. It seems like this contest is also just an advanced level scavenger hunt of objectives to accomplish. Your chances are better running for a political office and getting the position. "Yah that's right he's going to be mayor" BTTF
In conclusion, my advice for James Randi is to throw in the towel, put on a pointy red hat, and become the new travelosity gnome. Da da da da da da da, da da da da doo doo doo, gotta get out of here.
Keroscene
Active Member
Re: JREF - Million Dollar Challenge
He's old. Most old people are sarcastic and cranky. Look at Harte for example.
But your post seems more like your interested in just bashing the guy for his commentary than the actual tests themselves. The test's he's demonstrating there look rather simple. For example, the dousing rod ones. He suggests putting whatever materials the guys looking for under a blanket and then have the guy use his dousing rod to locate them. What about the one with the boxes in the room? How much simpler can the tests get? You guys are going on about how the tests that are impossible to pass because he simply refuses to believe in the people, but in the videos you posted that just isn't the case. It looks to me like he is giving them a perfectly fair chance. Maybe it isn't like that in every case but it sure looks like it is in the videos. I'm not interested in taking sides with anyone, or defending anyone, but I am interested in the validity of paranormal claims. I don't see anything wrong with the tests in the videos.
cmac
Member
Re: JREF - Million Dollar Challenge
My grandfather used dowsing to find water for people in his community for their well water. He received no payment for his services, he just wanted to help people out. According to my mother, he was very successful at finding the proper place to dig the wells, and it seems that everyone in the community was well aware that he could do this. My father is a huge skeptic, to a tremendous level, yet even he admits that my grandfather was successful using dowsing to find water for people's wells in the area. Someone gave me a set of dowsing rods. I didn't think they would do anything, I honestly didn't. But they sure do, in certain places around my property, and it is very repeatable. What are they locating? I don't know. Does it seem that they work? It sure does. Does this prove anything to a skeptic? Nope Does this need serious investigation with an open mind, and see what the data concludes, seems like it might? Dowsing is a weird thing, no doubt. But that is no reason to throw it out as having possible validity. I even saw a city worker in a local town, dowsing for the water lines to mark where to dig to put in new lines. Guess it was good enough for my grandpa, the people in the community, and this city worker. If it works, it works.
Re: JREF - Million Dollar Challenge
You got it right, I can hardly say anything good about people like Randi, I guess that's why I don't post much in this thread. Yet I understand the point of creating a challenge like he did. There are many videos showing people who don't have any paranormal skills but who probably think they have some. I wished someone could claim the money, but with Mr Randi and his ego at the wheel, this isn't going to happen.
In the video featuring the Downser, the guy pointed the right box on the 3rd try, Randi said he found it using luck instead of his rod, which is right. I'm pretty sure that if the guy pointed the right box on the first try, Randi would have tell him he was only lucky, or some other lame excuses. I'm not using this as an excuse to bash him, since it obviously didn't happen that way, I'm just pointing out how I don't like his attitude. The same goes for his idea of puting pipes under a blanket. The idea isn't bad in itself I agree: It would be a fair test for the downser to prove he's truly able to find pipes and water with his rod, but I don't see the point of even bothering to try when I see Randi's smartass attitude.
Keroscene
Active Member
Re: JREF - Million Dollar Challenge
cmac,
I never said I did or didn't believe in it. I just said I didn't see anything wrong with the tests in the videos. They weren't rigged or unbeatable by any means. On the flip side, I've also seen videos where it does work, but that's not what's happening in these videos...
You say that it needs serious testing and investigation done to see what the data proves, but you're already convinced that it does work. "If it works, it works." That's not what I consider having an open mind, and with all due respect, is hypocritical. There's has already been tons of testing and investigations done on dowsing and it's all proved inconclusive and always will. No amount of further testing will ever definitely prove it one way or the other. You and Harte are both very selective about the data you choose to support your beliefs. You both say you want to be objective and see all the data but I'm not seeing that in either of your guy's posts. There's been tons of tests on dowsing, do we really need more? Just because you don't acknowledge them doesn't mean they don't exist. Are you just looking for the data that proves it's real? Really, it's not much different than Harte always taking the "non-believer" stance. I'm not trying to offend you guys but I feel like I'm stuck in the middle. "Stuck in the middle with you. Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, Stuck in the middle with you!" ( I don't really think you guys are clowns or jokers in any derogatory way, I just like the song and it seemed to fit the occasion)
cmac
Member
Re: JREF - Million Dollar Challenge
Keroscene, I appreciate your comments. I wasn't talking about the video at all, I've seen the stuff in the vid before.
I know my parents aren't lying to me, so yeah I guess, "If it works, it works" just like I said. I will stand behind that statement. Maybe testing has shown inconclusive, I don't know, I haven't looked at those studies. Dowsing is very interesting though. I know 2 people that I trust completely what they tell me, and I know my grandparents as well. They weren't delusional, and neither were the people who entrusted my grandfather's services to locate water for their wells, which did work, and the water was where he said that it was, so it seemed to work. And the city worker was using it, and it sure looked like he located it properly, since we sat there and watched him place markers in the ground, and then pull the water lines up right from where they marked where the pipe was using the dowsing rods. I tend to believe what I see with my own two eyes, when it shows results like that. Also what I've used myself and seen that the dowsing rods do the same thing over certain areas, time after time. So, I'm not going to just throw out these cases and think it is all chance or luck, something is going on, seems pretty obvious to me, I guess it once again is all in someone's perception of things. I have yet to see it not work in my experience, and I've heard about it my whole life, and not just from my parents and grandparents. Maybe this is something that is commonplace where I'm from, and just isn't where most people live or grew up, I have no idea on that. I'm not going to act like something can't be, when all I see is that it is very real. There is an area in my house that on all 3 levels of the house, the dowsing rods move dramatically, I'm not causing them to move, and it isn't really close to a power source of any type. I can go to those areas, and two other areas in my home, at any time and the rods will move, and also those areas in my yard. I'd say it is doing something. All I can tell people is what I've experienced, and that is what I will share, people can believe what they want, that is their free will. I just get tired of people saying things "can't be" when I've experienced them over and over, and I know I'm not alone. Are they proven to beyond all reasonable doubt to science or skeptics? Probably not. I don't have to have science or a skeptic tell me that everyday events I've seen are real to believe they are possible or are likely real, at some point the proof is in the pudding as they say. I guess people need to try out their own dowsing rods and see what happens, and judge for themselves, maybe they don't work for them, or don't work for some people. It is always just funny to me that since someone hasn't experienced something themselves and "science" hasn't taken the time to prove it, or proved it beyond any doubt to make it a law, that it can't happen. And generally these are things that thousands, maybe millions of people have had experiences with. So everyone seems delusional to the skeptics, awesome. That is their opinion and their right to that opinion.
I get what you are saying here Keroscene and I do appreciate your comments, I really I do. I'm not trying to be all one way, or all the other way. I want to get as close to the truth as possible, looking at things from many angles, taking in as many others opinions and experiences as possible. I just have to tell what I've seen and I've heard from people. They aren't made up, they are experiences. They don't seem to point to it being crazy, or ridiculous, or impossible, as some want people to believe, on the contrary. Dowsing is used in real life, and was used a lot in years gone by, before we had other detecting devices (which by the way cost the customer a lot more money, so whether they are better is a subjective thing, sure they have been proven by science, maybe they are more trustworthy, I don't know)
I will continue to share my own experiences and keep looking for answers. I personally believe, the more we share things, the closer we get to the answers we likely all want to know. Keeping my experiences to myself, and others doing the same, to me gets no where. Why are we even posting on this forum then? It also leaves everything up to the scientists, who don't have all the answers. Is everything possible being tested by science? No. People for generations made discoveries and they were things that worked for them, so they used them.
Keroscene
Active Member
Re: JREF - Million Dollar Challenge
I can't say I've actually ever seen anyone do it in person. I've seen it done in videos and documentaries, though. I'm undecided in my beliefs about it, but I do find it interesting. Personally, I've carried lots of sticks and metal bars in my day and I've never had one unexpectedly pull towards the ground. Of course I didn't really want it to to begin with, so that might be part of the reason. I know a little about dowsing, but not a lot. I know people have been dousing for at least the last thousand years or so and there have been tests over the centuries to verify if it's reliable or not. The material or the dousing rod itself varies. The tests vary in their consistency. I remember one is Russia or Germany that was a big test with alot of participants and they had a very high success rate. I know that no matter where you are, if you drill a well deep enough in soil it will work for collecting water. Where I live it isn't really necessary to dowse though because the water table isn't very deep to begin with. I'm not sure how they do it in other parts of the country, but I've seen a couple wells go in and usually the position of the well is decided by where the house is sitting and it's opposite side of the septic tank and leech field. That kind of narrows it down for possible locations it can go. I know they try to avoid trees because of roots and bedrock when deciding the position. But will drill through both if it's necessary. The wells usually come with a standard pump size so it can't be too far from the house which is pretty important. Usually they drill to a minimum recommended depth for our area. I'm not a plumber though, so this is just going by what I've seen. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone's well around here drying up, but i know it does happen in other parts of the country.
My grandfather had a few metal detectors and I remember using them as a kid to search for buried treasure. It would beep and then I would dig like crazy thinking I just found the jackpot. I'd say at least half the time I'd dig down and not find anything at all. I'd think a metal detector would have a higher success rate than about half. Anyways, a metal detector might have a 100% success rate in controlled tests, but from my own experience I know it isn't that consistent in the field. THen again maybe it's not the tool that has the problem.
I wasn't intentionally trying discredit your story in my previous post. I didn't challenge the validity of it in any way, and I have no reason not to believe you. I hope I didn't make you feel like it was necessary to defend it. I can look at your story as if it were a verifiable fact, but that doesn't change me in being undecided. I just don't think it's possible for you to take an objective stance on all the facts of dowsing because of your personal belief bias, or confirmation bias. Not that I'm any more or less qualified than you to examine the data, but I am undecided on whether it's a reliable method or not, and at this point there isn't really any reason why I shouldn't be. Unfortunately there's this stigma that follows all boards of this nature where one is either a believer or a non-believer. Usually the fervent non-believers are labeled skeptics. James Randy likes to call himself a skeptic, but he is more of a non-believer. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being skeptical and I always took the defintion of skeptic to mean someone who is undecided, but that doesn't seem to be the meaning anymore. It's become so bad people rarely show healthy skepticism becuase they are afraid of being associated with the likes of the fervent non-believers.
