Patriot Act type legislation

[Judge Bean]

Re: Patriot Act type legislation

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Darkwolf\")</div>

How about evidence that would almost certianly subject the source to a very unpleasant death. Much like a journalist, an intelligence officer, and the intelligence community in general owes it's sources secrecy in cases where revealing them poses a danger.[/b]

Then you have to decide whether to give up the snitch to convict the defendant.

The evidence would be subject to the scrutiny of somone outside of the control of the prosicution, namely the defense, who would have to be the attorny of the defendant's choice.

I mean the scrutiny and review offered by an appeal.

Its not the prosicutor's special requirements.

The prosecutor represents the government. The government is the side that requires secrecy. The prosecutor and the government cannot have the secrecy they want and still work for the Constitution.

The requirements for a low level security clearence are generally that a person has no criminal record, is mentally stable, and has no direct ties to individuals or orginizations alligned with the defendant's alleged position, or any that are directly opposed to his religion or ethnic group. I don't see where any honerable attorny on either side would have a problem with that.

Imagine that you are the defense attorney. For the jury, you may want to have someone with a criminal record to help decide the fate of someone facing criminal charges. You may want someone who doesn't fit the "norm" of whatever mental stability is, or a jury full of people with potential understanding of the defendant's "alleged position." I agree that you would not want any bigots, but you may not want anyone opposed to any particular religious or ethnic group. Strong bigoted positions on a politics-religion mix is like tossing a grenade into the jury room.

The attorney's honor is irrelevant. The alleged needs of the State to keep sources secret can be overcome by the defendant's right to a fair trial.

But let's be realistic: if the Bush administration has its way, these will soon be specious, carping arguments. They want to eliminate the legislative and judicial branches and set themselves up as the combination judge, jury, and executioner/torturer-- what I like to call the Inquisition Combo. No need to worry! These are terrorists, just terrorists, right?

Oh, wait a second. I see here that my city has been named by the Justice Department as one of only five in the nation needing an "expansion of freedom" and suffering from having "lost all hope." Fresno is Iraq West! So we are to receive a troop allotment-- DEA, ATF and FBI agents are coming to town to fight the "domestic terrorists" (so-called by the local law enforcement).

Who do you suppose these insurgent fighters are, who must be engaged in urban combat by federal agents in my neighborhood?

Youth gangs.

Follow the bouncing red dot. Enemy Combatants not entitled to rights. Fight terrorists to spread freedom. Deprive detainees of their liberty rights to spread freedom. Youth gangs are domestic terrorists. Round up citizens and put them in camps indefinitely at "the discretion of the military" (to paraphrase a lawyer arguing for indefinite detention of uncharged suspects).

Sealed evidence, huh? How about a sealed Constitution?

 

[CaryP]

Re: Patriot Act type legislation

Brilliant Paul.

I think the Bush administration is waiting to see what happens in the Padilla case before going wholesale with the "enemy combatant" mantra. If the Supreme Court gives Bushco what it wants, no one, and I mean no one will be safe then. You disagree, especially if you're too vocal and carry influence, you're the new "enemy combatant" with allegations trumped up to satisfy the masses through the controlled media. No writ of haebus corpus, no attorney, no formal charges, no evidence, just a long stay in an undisclosed location. At the government's expense of course. I mean you don't have to pay for your prison costs like a few hundred years ago.

As has been said in another thread, we're one "event" away from this reality. Hang on kids, we're almost there.

Cary

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Patriot Act type legislation

Then you have to decide whether to give up the snitch to convict the defendant.

I don't think that making the information available to the judge jury, prosecution and defense would nessisarially give up the snitch. Giving it to the news media would. That is not only bad for the intelligence buisness, it is dishonerable to the extreme. We shoulen't hang those who help us out to dry. It is unfortunate that the military, intelligence, and judicial worlds have been forced together. Now that they have, we need to find a way to protect our people in the feild while still protecting the rights of the defendant. Full disclosure to the public doesn't get it. Neither does holding somone without a trial.

I mean the scrutiny and review offered by an appeal.

What did I say there woulden't be an appeal. Of course any higher court would have to be privy to all of the information.

Imagine that you are the defense attorney. For the jury, you may want to have someone with a criminal record to help decide the fate of someone facing criminal charges. You may want someone who doesn't fit the \"norm\" of whatever mental stability is, or a jury full of people with potential understanding of the defendant's \"alleged position.\" ?

Well, this would certianly make the defense attorney's job easier. However the issue in a criminal trial is wether this person did the thing they are accused of or not. Any further complications that have been added in the past two hundred years really do not belong there. Having a criminal record biases the juror against the system. Thats as bad as having a clansmen of a black man's jury. As to mental stability, clear thinking is required in any endevor that requires finding the truth. I don't see how any mental disorder can help with that.

Oh, wait a second. I see here that my city has been named by the Justice Department as one of only five in the nation needing an \"expansion of freedom\" and suffering from having \"lost all hope.\" Fresno is Iraq West! So we are to receive a troop allotment-- DEA, ATF and FBI agents are coming to town to fight the \"domestic terrorists\" (so-called by the local law enforcement).

Who do you suppose these insurgent fighters are, who must be engaged in urban combat by federal agents in my neighborhood?

Youth gangs.

Do you have any further info on this??

I think the Bush administration is waiting to see what happens in the Padilla case before going wholesale with the \"enemy combatant\" mantra.

I agree with you here Cary, and You Paul on the fact that we are having a moot arguement on how we should handle this.

 

[Judge Bean]

Re: Patriot Act type legislation

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(\"Darkwolf\")</div>

?
Do you have any further info on this [federal agents fighting gangs in Fresno]??
?
[/b]

Fresno gets aid in battle with gangs </span>

Program will coordinate federal, state, local crime fighters in targeting gangs.


By Michael Doyle and Marc Benjamin / The Fresno Bee
(Updated Tuesday, March 1, 2005, 9:11 AM)



? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Fresno has been chosen as one of five communities nationwide to receive targeted help in reducing gang crime, the U.S. Department of Justice announced Monday.


The effort will enlist federal crime fighters, U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said in Washington.

As part of the relatively new Violent Crime Impact Team program, the Justice Department plans to target armed career criminals with a combination of state, federal and local forces.

\"The initiative has shown how we can fight crime better, expand freedom, and open new opportunities in communities that had lost all hope,\" Gonzales said.

Speaking at a meeting of the overseers of California\'s Hoover Institution on War, Revolution and Peace, Gonzales identified Fresno as one of five cities that will be targeted with the new task forces. All cities named Monday, which include New Orleans, Hartford, Conn., Houston and Camden, N.J., have been plagued by high levels of gun-associated crime. The program will employ agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives; FBI, U.S. Marshals, federal prosecutors and Drug Enforcement Administration to aid Fresno\'s gang officers, said McGregor Scott, U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of California, which stretches through Central and Northern California from just south of Bakersfield to the Oregon border. Within that region, Fresno is the largest city.

\"Working together, they have taken the most violent and the most dangerous offenders off our streets,\" Gonzales declared.

Federal officers will coordinate with police, sheriff\'s deputies, probation officers and state prosecutors. The team will be led by a supervisory special agent with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, and use intelligence specialists from the agency.
The Justice Department did not detail Monday precisely how long the Fresno effort might last, nor how many additional federal officers might be assigned to the community. Officials also did not indicate how much of the program entails consolidating existing law enforcement resources versus investment in new money and manpower.


\"In each of the cities that have been selected, the needs and issues are all different,\" Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives spokesman Tom Hill said. \"What we try to do is tailor [the program] to their specific needs.\"

The program began last year under then-Attorney General John Ashcroft, targeting 15 cities. Officials touted it as a success, crediting the program with more than 1,900 arrests and 1,700 firearms seized.

Fresno will become the second California city involved in the program, joining Los Angeles.

\"There is obviously a need and it\'s not a secret to anybody that Fresno has a significant gang problem,\" Scott said. \"I am just very excited we can bring the resources we have to the good citizens to help them improve the quality of life.\"

A significant benefit of the program is the ability to prosecute gang members federally. Scott said that will guarantee longer sentences for offenders because federal inmates serve a minimum of 85% of their sentences compared with 50% in state prisons. And the federal prisons are dotted across the country instead of being located in a nearby county.

\"When we sentence a gang member to prison they go to Georgia or somewhere else in the country and that can serve to very effectively cut off the ties of the gang,\" Scott said.

"Rendering."

He said the impact will reach beyond Fresno County lines because gang members often go beyond county lines to commit crimes. \"The more resources we can concentrate on Fresno, the more we can affect the whole Valley,\" he said.

In addition to placing federal agents on Fresno\'s streets, the federal government intends to assist in paying some overtime costs for officers in the Multi-Agency Gang Enforcement Consortium, an effort by local law enforcement agencies to team up and combat gang crime.

Scott worked with Fresno County District Attorney Elizabeth Egan, Fresno Police Chief Jerry Dyer, MAGEC Cmdr. and California Highway Patrol Capt. Matt Bishop and Fresno County Sheriff Richard Pierce in formulating the plan approved for Fresno.

Scott said he expects officers to begin working the Fresno beat in the spring.

Egan said the federal government recognized strides being made in Fresno County to combat gang crime.

No matter that the recognition may be dubious, she said, it will be helpful to law enforcement and law-abiding citizens will benefit.

\"What was real important in getting this federal designation was our MAGEC unit because it is so unique; it\'s a model statewide and so effective that it caught their attention,\" she said. \"We already work in a collaborative effort and our conviction rate is high so they thought this would be a good place to invest their money.\"

She also credited Scott, a former county district attorney, for his efforts and recognition of financial challenges local governments face in fighting crime.

Egan said the program also will be used as a research tool, assisting officers in understanding in greater detail where gang members and weapons are coming from and where they are going when they leave the community.

<span style=\'font-family:Times New Roman\'>\"Violent gang members and parolees using guns are clearly the ones we want to focus on,\" she said.

 

[StarLord]

Re: Patriot Act type legislation

This sounds more like an hidden excuse to 'legaly' Create a visible place for 'Homeland Security' troops to be based. Paul, do you have any abandoned military bases there in fresno or nearby?

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Patriot Act type legislation

Notice the gun grabbing overtones as well as the collection of federal agencies taking over local law enforcement's athority instead of just helping. Havent heard much from the BATF recently, and their taking the lead on this one really causes me concern. Careful out there Paul.

 

[K@t 5]

Re: Patriot Act type legislation

Next time you think that we don?t have Waco type things going on, just remember that tomorrow if you felt like it, you could call in an anonymous tip to the cops that your neighbor has been acting suspiciously lately and there?s been an awful lot of activity at their place in the past month. ?Within minutes, a team will descend upon their house, take your neighbor into custody, denying him his basic rights and destroy not only his but his family?s life. ?How?s that for Waco?

After reading this article...how far off are we now?

 

[Darkwolf]

Re: Patriot Act type legislation

Not very far really. It does fit the JT profile, depending on how they do things. The number one concern there is their focus on disarmament rather than nailing the little slimebags for real crimes. The BATF is lead on this one as at Waco, and I seem to recall that they went after the gang bangers in the cities for awhile last time before trying to hit a hard target. They have one goal, disarm the citizens, and their leading on any operation can't be a good thing. There was no mention of treating them as terrorists Yet. However if the gang bangers launch some kind of counterstrike, then they will fit the definition rather neatly. This seems like a pretty good way to start a war.

That said, we could just be being paranoid. Gangbangers do after all commit federal crimes, so it is the business of federal agents. Just kind of depends on how they handle things.

 

[Judge Bean]

Re: Patriot Act type legislation

They want to cut the gangmembers out of the herd and send them to federal prisons after federal convictions-- presumably on "concurrent jurisdiction" crimes. They know the truth about the gangs, that they are a prison problem more than a street one, and they want to help the powerful California guard union by breaking them up. That is part of it.

The other part is the president's agenda (and now his wife's) to break up the gangs nationwide. There may be a million young men, a lot of them out of work, most of them "minorities," armed, delinquent, angry at "authority," unable to drive because they've lost their licenses for failure to pay child support or drunk driving-- in short, a massive infantry militia without clear political loyalties.

These are the ones they need to draft in order to carry on their stupid wars. This is the historical pool of soldiers drawn upon in every war in history. What it is not is a vast army of organized criminals-- forget the propaganda.

Since the AG has designated my city a hotbed of dangerous gangsters, I suppose that my experience here should count for something. I have represented thousands of gangmembers in Fresno, both juveniles and adults. By far the most common crime committed by them has been auto theft, and most of the time the car is stolen for personal reasons by an individual or by a pair of guys who need a ride right away to e.g., get to a party.

When the car is stopped and searched, there is sometimes a pistol under the seat.

Other common offenses committed by gangmembers: the usual: domestic violence, possession of drugs, resisting arrest, robbery (beer run out of the 711)... and, way down on the list, every once in a while, so seldom that you have to look up the statute... the additional allegation that the crime was committed as part of gang activity.

Just like the "Russian mafia," Peter Pan, and Scientology, the urban legend of scary, dark "gangbangers" roaming the streets preying on lawabiding citizens has taken hold of the imagination of many and is being used to prompt broad social policy. Now we have federal agents on the streets targeting the "enemy," or the "urban terrorists" as they are called. Their job, obviously, as Darkwolf says, is to disarm citizens.

At first, they will have no trouble disarming parolees, troubled youths who've gotten their names into the police computers as "certified gang members," and drunks who try to struggle away from cuffs.

Then, at least in Fresno, there will be no soldiers available. Then comes the door-to-door.

 

[StarLord]

Re: Patriot Act type legislation

That is one aspect. There is another that needs consideration and is just as serious. I live in a major city. We currently sport all races, thus the gangs here are equal opportunity employers. Modes of securing an income above and beyond flipping burgers or pushing a broom for minimum wage are of course one of the major drives for joining.

Be that as it may, there still remains the obvious downside to having a gang related altercation take place in your neighborhood and that would be the instant realization that it is impossible to dodge small pieces of lead that are traveling in your direction at a few thousand feet per second when these brainless yahoos decide to go and play OK Corral. You might guess that pointing out that their childhood formations and homelife senarios, which caused them to be a victim of society thus somewhat blameless does not cut it when it comes to a real life "Grand Theft Auto" rendition of the playstation.

Where are my rights to NOT have this happen?