The Perfect Nation

[Judge Bean]

The Perfect Nation

Originally posted by TheHeggy@Aug 31 2004, 06:41 PM
If only there was a bunch of unclaimed land.... We could all move there and be one big happy country.

​

Well my, my. Sounds like the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1621, Kentucky in 1780, the Western Reserve in 1800, Texas in 1835, Utah in 1846, California in 1849...

 

[Judge Bean]

The Perfect Nation

Originally posted by Grayson+Aug 31 2004, 05:45 PM--><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-CaryP@Aug 31 2004, 04:42 PM

I wish you would all see the long post by Grayson in the "Misrule" thread; I believe it is opposed to the American notion that government should be in the hands of the people and open to challenge by them at any time.

Seen it, read it, didn't care for it much at all. No disrespect to Grayson, but that don't sound like the kind of govt. I'd want to have any part of.

Been looking kinda spooky for a few years now.

Cary

​

Irrespective of what you want, that is the system of Government in which you live.

No disrespect was read into your reply.

[snapback]8144[/snapback]​

[/b][/quote]

You haven't responded to my response to your calling my position that of a fool; in fact, you have repeated the same idea since then. Shall I interpret that as disrespect? Wouldn't it be more accurate to recognize it as a cultural difference? Americans are less apt to regard their government as an authority than our cousins across the water. We do not think of it as an unassailable, ancient Institution. We want to own it, and woe to the president or congressperson who suggests that we do not.

 

[Grayson]

The Perfect Nation

Originally posted by Paul J. Lyon+Aug 31 2004, 06:53 PM--><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by Grayson@Aug 31 2004, 05:45 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-CaryP

@Aug 31 2004, 04:42 PM

I wish you would all see the long post by Grayson in the "Misrule" thread; I believe it is opposed to the American notion that government should be in the hands of the people and open to challenge by them at any time.

Seen it, read it, didn't care for it much at all. No disrespect to Grayson, but that don't sound like the kind of govt. I'd want to have any part of.

Been looking kinda spooky for a few years now.

Cary

​

Irrespective of what you want, that is the system of Government in which you live.

No disrespect was read into your reply.

[snapback]8144[/snapback]​

You haven't responded to my response to your calling my position that of a fool; in fact, you have repeated the same idea since then. Shall I interpret that as disrespect? Wouldn't it be more accurate to recognize it as a cultural difference? Americans are less apt to regard their government as an authority than our cousins across the water. We do not think of it as an unassailable, ancient Institution. We want to own it, and woe to the president or congressperson who suggests that we do not.

[snapback]8159[/snapback]​

[/b][/quote]

Paul: I didn't realise that I had called you a fool??? Nor that you were calling me out to answer you on this specific charge.

I thought that we were debating, from a purely clinical viewpoint, the system of Government that burdens us on a daily basis, whether it be a US or UK Government. I never reiterated my previous points, I was offering a more graphic view of our Western Governments in context with both the psychology of man and posing a what if should we refuse to play ball. In this I paint backdrops and pose questions, no more and no less.

Are you calling my integrity into question?

 

[Judge Bean]

The Perfect Nation

Originally posted by Grayson+Aug 31 2004, 10:24 PM--><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by Paul J. Lyon@Aug 31 2004, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by Grayson@Aug 31 2004, 05:45 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-CaryP

@Aug 31 2004, 04:42 PM

I wish you would all see the long post by Grayson in the "Misrule" thread; I believe it is opposed to the American notion that government should be in the hands of the people and open to challenge by them at any time.

Seen it, read it, didn't care for it much at all. No disrespect to Grayson, but that don't sound like the kind of govt. I'd want to have any part of.

Been looking kinda spooky for a few years now.

Cary

​

Irrespective of what you want, that is the system of Government in which you live.

No disrespect was read into your reply.

[snapback]8144[/snapback]​

You haven't responded to my response to your calling my position that of a fool; in fact, you have repeated the same idea since then. Shall I interpret that as disrespect? Wouldn't it be more accurate to recognize it as a cultural difference? Americans are less apt to regard their government as an authority than our cousins across the water. We do not think of it as an unassailable, ancient Institution. We want to own it, and woe to the president or congressperson who suggests that we do not.

[snapback]8159[/snapback]​

Paul: I didn't realise that I had called you a fool??? Nor that you were calling me out to answer you on this specific charge.

I thought that we were debating, from a purely clinical viewpoint, the system of Government that burdens us on a daily basis, whether it be a US or UK Government. I never reiterated my previous points, I was offering a more graphic view of our Western Governments in context with both the psychology of man and posing a what if should we refuse to play ball. In this I paint backdrops and pose questions, no more and no less.

Are you calling my integrity into question?

[snapback]8182[/snapback]​

[/b][/quote]

Integrity?

You have reiterated that only a fool would challenge his own government or believe that he could change it. I pointed out the problem on the other thread. I think that part of the problem is maybe that you view it as an interesting theoretical question, and that you view a government as the possession or inherited privilege of a remote elite; while, to me, it is a wild and desperate theme thrashing out its drama in my back yard.

It is more that the American people have become a burden on their government than that the American government is burdening the people. When the revolution comes, it will have as usual been caused by those holding power.

If you read your other posts from my perspective, you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

[Grayson]

The Perfect Nation

Yes, I appear to have misinterpreted your perspective here... and there as well.

I thought that we were have a dispassionate debate regarding the ignominious nature of our system of Government, which I believe is unchangable via its own mechanisms for regulation. I see Western Governments as disconnected entities which are incapable of true change by, or for, the benefit of the Governed.

The very nature of Democracy precludes any internal intervention to change the manner in which it functions, nor bring about truly beneficial Social Revolution.

I don't see it being a tool of, or for, the Social Elite at all. I do see it as self perpetuating organism which is beyond popular governance, which it is in reality. Nothing that you or I do, will ever change that, not whilst we continue to take part in the act of Democracy.

I thought that my other argument was of two distinct parts, one building on the other. However, it is the interpretation that is important and you have interpreted it as a reiteration of the same argument. I am not prepared to argue this point with you, as I have tremendous respect for your intellect, accordingly I acquiesce to your view of the debate here.

If it is a more visceral debate that we are to partake in, then we must accept that we may misunderstand each other again, yet we are simply arguing our points of view. I suspect though, that under these circumstances we will agree with each other, as I currently sympathise with the point of view that you have made thus far. The implicit circumstance of the logic applied has been made with your usual vigour and renders it difficult to provide counter-argument to the overall point.

After having re-read this and other posts that you have made, I would rather have you in my defence, than prosecuting an argument against me.

You passionate involvement has thrown me, hence my defensive post.

My apologies for misunderstanding you here.

 

[Judge Bean]

The Perfect Nation

I appreciate your willingness to see from my angle, Grayson, and I hope you see that I was responding to the use of the term "fool" more than anything else. I apologize for my overreaction to it. It made me want to send my second over to set terms to recover my honor.

Another thing occurred to me, though, and that's the Anglo-American trait of having the real mess take place on foreign soil. This is the underlying bitterness behind the accusation of "imperialism," that is, that it's best to have the killing and shooting elsewhere, preferably in a poorer region. Not that both British and American countries have not seen their share of bloodshed on home ground, but, well, not quite their share.

Because of the "old country" ties and the sense in both countries of relative geographical safety, and their wealth and stable societies, the people tend to think of the real risky politics as occurring elsewhere: certainly nothing like a civil war, we presume, is a likelihood in New York or London.

We have become smug and complacent. This system is not so solidly grounded as it seems. It reminds me of Virginia City, Nevada, which was spread out on the side of a mountain in the 1860s, all undercut by a network of mines and tunnels. While not very much of the town ever actually fell through, it still gives you a sinking feeling to stand in it. It must have been a much worse feeling with 10,000 people standing on it; when I lived there, it was a "ghost town" of fewer than 500 residents.

It is an illusion, don't you think, that the real problems with the social order are all the problems of Asia, Africa, and Latin America? That's where we go to do the shooting.

 

[Grayson]

The Perfect Nation

Originally posted by Paul J. Lyon@Sep 1 2004, 09:21 PM
I appreciate your willingness to see from my angle, Grayson, and I hope you see that I was responding to the use of the term \"fool\" more than anything else. I apologize for my overreaction to it. It made me want to send my second over to set terms to recover my honor.

Another thing occurred to me, though, and that's the Anglo-American trait of having the real mess take place on foreign soil. This is the underlying bitterness behind the accusation of \"imperialism,\" that is, that it's best to have the killing and shooting elsewhere, preferably in a poorer region. Not that both British and American countries have not seen their share of bloodshed on home ground, but, well, not quite their share.

Because of the \"old country\" ties and the sense in both countries of relative geographical safety, and their wealth and stable societies, the people tend to think of the real risky politics as occurring elsewhere: certainly nothing like a civil war, we presume, is a likelihood in New York or London.

I tread lightly here. It has been my observation in recent years that the UK is ever coming closer to the brink of Social Revolution, in such a manner as has not been seen since our own Civil War.

We are Governed by voracious Politicians seemingly bent on reducing our middle class to beasts of burden, fit to only feed the coffers of the Exchequer in order to fund our brave new order. Europe has us so entwined in the buearacrcy of Brussels, the Maastricht Treaty, our new European Constitution and the Human Rights Act that we are endeavouring to satisfy too many agenda's at a cost to our own National Individuality and Treasury. We are lost in a sea of conflicting and demoralising Euro-Directives which continually strip the wealth of our Nation to pay for Social Regeneration Initiatives across Western and Eastern Europe and constrain our Laws and Rights as British Citizens.

We are forced to provide free access to our Country from all who call, who are mainly Easter Europeans bent on utilising our Social Security System to pay them, educate them, provide free housing to them and care for their health. Free to them, with the burden of financing this madness falling on the average tax-payer.

If we say no to this abuse, if we ask that they eventually become net contributers or seek to limit their rights to take and never pay, we are branded Racist and subject to action in the European Court of Human Rights.

France, Germany and all other Member States do not offer this free ride and as such do not have to endure the burden, nor inequities of the system. Nor do they help foot the bill. Britain has had this generous Social Benefits System for many years, the others have not. Thus we are hoist by our own petard and since these transient populations are unlikely to travel to anywhere were these benefits are not available, Europe is happy to see this mass migration end on our doorstep.

In this Country, if you are an Eastern Europena who lands seeking aid, you get a house and an income for you and your family. On top of this, we supply and education, language courses and re-training for employment. Generously we add free health and dental care and provide allowances for furniture and home decoration.

If you are a native englishman, with Wife and Child, you are not entitled to housing as you are not a priority ethnic group, nor free education past the age of 19. Dental care is limited and our Health Service is a lottery depending on where you live.

National Socialism is gaining favour in the UK, as is our displeasure with our process of Democracy. In the 60's, a Politician named Enoch Powel made a speech known as the Rivers of Blood speech, in which he predicted the UK sliding into this mire and went on to say that England would rebel and the streets would run with rivers of blood. That day is fast approaching.

We have become smug and complacent. This system is not so solidly grounded as it seems. It reminds me of Virginia City, Nevada, which was spread out on the side of a mountain in the 1860s, all undercut by a network of mines and tunnels. While not very much of the town ever actually fell through, it still gives you a sinking feeling to stand in it. It must have been a much worse feeling with 10,000 people standing on it; when I lived there, it was a \"ghost town\" of fewer than 500 residents.

It is an illusion, don't you think, that the real problems with the social order are all the problems of Asia, Africa, and Latin America? That's where we go to do the shooting.

​

Why look inward and see your own failings, when you can look out and see them in others?

 

[StarLord]

The Perfect Nation

Grayson,

Get a very good Tan, change my name to Singh and learn to cook curry every night, learn to speak like the Raja and I could live there free eh?

 

[Judge Bean]

The Perfect Nation

Originally posted by Grayson/StarLord
We are forced to provide free access to our Country from all who call, who are mainly Easter Europeans bent on utilising our Social Security System to pay them, educate them, provide free housing to them and care for their health. Free to them, with the burden of financing this madness falling on the average tax-payer.

If we say no to this abuse, if we ask that they eventually become net contributers or seek to limit their rights to take and never pay, we are branded Racist and subject to action in the European Court of Human Rights.

France, Germany and all other Member States do not offer this free ride and as such do not have to endure the burden, nor inequities of the system. Nor do they help foot the bill. Britain has had this generous Social Benefits System for many years, the others have not. Thus we are hoist by our own petard and since these transient populations are unlikely to travel to anywhere were these benefits are not available, Europe is happy to see this mass migration end on our doorstep.

In this Country, if you are an Eastern Europena who lands seeking aid, you get a house and an income for you and your family. On top of this, we supply and education, language courses and re-training for employment. Generously we add free health and dental care and provide allowances for furniture and home decoration.

If you are a native englishman, with Wife and Child, you are not entitled to housing as you are not a priority ethnic group, nor free education past the age of 19. Dental care is limited and our Health Service is a lottery depending on where you live.



Grayson,

Get a very good Tan, change my name to Singh and learn to cook curry every night, learn to speak like the Raja and I could live there free eh?

​

OK, boys, let's back off from this theme. The curry isn't going to go over much better than the garlic did.

This is actually the root text of the xenophobia and chauvinism at work in the U.S. to suppress our most recent wave of pre-citizens, the Mexicans and Central Americans. You might substitute some of the names and places and use the same argument against extension of social services to the poorest people in my neck of the woods.

The key things to remember here are inclusion, diversity, and justice. Personally, it would be my wish to get a half-million refugees from every dictatorship on earth to move to my city. In a few short years, we'd have the best university, professional teams, hospitals, gradeschools, and workforce in the country.

 

[StarLord]

The Perfect Nation

Paul, I was agreeing with Grayson there not rubbing something in.

It's very much like the southern border of California, whereby if you can manage to time it right have a child born here while your visiting, The hospital is free and your childs birth may potentialy open a new way of life for the parents.

That situation has nothing to do with food but the disparity between the folks born here and the immigrants that come here and use the system to the most amazing maximum allowable by immagination. Rutabaga in your court.