The Perfect Nation

[Grayson]

The Perfect Nation

Paul: I agree with you here, but that is the perculiar nature of the group mind isn't it. Were you to ask any number of individuals their view on an issue like this, they would say that they had no objection to such cultural diversity in their home Nation. Curiously, as a collective Nation, England is unhappy with the current circumstance that is seen to be foist upon it.

Individuals are smart, people are dumb.

 

[diabeditor]

The Perfect Nation

Since the topic is the "perfect nation" I'd like to get things back on track by saying that the Star Trek idea is ideal: no money, people have no need for material possessions because everybody works for the common good. I don't mean communism or socialism either. A country where people help one another, no one goes hungry or without a bed to sleep in, etc.

 

[TimeWizardCosmo]

The Perfect Nation

I've never really watched a whole lot of Star Trek.... How do people buy things then? Say I wanted a new computer.... How would I go about getting it?

Or say I was planning a big feast, how would I buy all the food?

 

[CaryP]

The Perfect Nation

Originally posted by diabeditor@Sep 8 2004, 02:31 PM

Since the topic is the \"perfect nation\" I'd like to get things back on track by saying that the Star Trek idea is ideal: no money, people have no need for material possessions because everybody works for the common good. I don't mean communism or socialism either. A country where people help one another, no one goes hungry or without a bed to sleep in, etc.

​

Somes great, but highly impractical and with human beings totally impossible. What incentives would anyone have to work if everything was "free"? If you didn't work, could you still acquire things? What if what I contributed to society was on the low end of the totem pole? Could I still live on an estate, drive the nicest car, have unlimited access to air travel, run up huge tabs at restaurants, etc., etc., etc.? Sounded good on Star Trek, but IT WAS A TV SHOW. They can make that crap up because it's in the "future", but it don't work in the real world. Even without money, or currency, early tribes bartered. Money was invented to facilitate the speed of transactions for humans. Commerce is the engine of civilization. The arts, science, research, etc. don't exist without some form of commerce funding them. Unless you want to live like a primitive clan of apes in the wilderness, the "Star Trek" solution is just a pipe dream. I'm not trying to give you grief here bud, but what you're asking for ain't gonna happen.

This thread is more about what kind of governance would make a perfect nation, also not attainable, but that's the topic of conversation. Good to see you posting diabeditor.

Cary

 

[diabeditor]

The Perfect Nation

I don't mind the criticism of my ideas, Cary. I agree wholeheartedly that I am being optimistic when I speak of a world without money where everyone is 100% equal. This perfect world only exists if everybody else agrees with this perfect world, and that will never happen. Once you start getting dissenters, the whole concept falls apart.

 

[TimeWizardCosmo]

The Perfect Nation

Since this relates to having the 'Perfect Nation', I'll plug a link in here as well for a little more exposure.

<a href=\'http://www.timetravelforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=696\' target=\'_blank\'>Click here to find out about the Republic of Time Travel Forum</a>

 

[Phoenix]

The Perfect Nation

Originally posted by diabeditor@Sep 8 2004, 04:02 PM
I don't mind the criticism of my ideas, Cary. I agree wholeheartedly that I am being optimistic when I speak of a world without money where everyone is 100% equal. This perfect world only exists if everybody else agrees with this perfect world, and that will never happen. Once you start getting dissenters, the whole concept falls apart.

​

Actually the futures of BB Boris
and AL659, which Boris vouched for it's authenticity though he was not aware of the continued presence of terrorist during the time period, do talk about human societies without money.
http://www.timetravelforum.net/forums/inde...p?showtopic=133

 

[CaryP]

The Perfect Nation

[/QUOTE]Actually the futures of BB Boris
and AL659, which Boris vouched for it's authenticity though he was not aware of the continued presence of terrorist during the time period, do talk about human societies without money.
http://www.timetravelforum.net/forums/inde...p?showtopic=133

Phoenix,

Thanks for the link, but reading through it, I didn't see where the subject under hypnosis said anything about money not being used and everybody could just get what they wanted. Sounded like every body had to work and contribute. BB Boris is questionable as a source on future economics IMO. But everybody's entitled to believe what they want to believe.

Cary

 

[StarLord]

The Perfect Nation

"Everybody is entitled to believe what they want to believe" Sounds like the underlying secret to getting away with everything under the sun here in the US. :lol:
Also, a very big mainstay in the democratic process, religions, trusting hot dogs, trusting your neighbor after he said he didn't take all your chickens, Utopia, the real reason the Borg want us to party, Honesty of the Govt., cough, cough, cough...ACK!!!

 

[Phoenix]

The Perfect Nation

Originally posted by CaryP@Sep 9 2004, 01:11 PM

Actually the futures of BB Boris
and AL659, which Boris vouched for it's authenticity though he was not aware of the continued presence of terrorist during the time period, do talk about human societies without money.
http://www.timetravelforum.net/forums/inde...p?showtopic=133

Phoenix,

Thanks for the link, but reading through it, I didn't see where the subject under hypnosis said anything about money not being used and everybody could just get what they wanted. Sounded like every body had to work and contribute. BB Boris is questionable as a source on future economics IMO. But everybody's entitled to believe what they want to believe.

Cary

​

Understood about Boris, people did work in Boris's time too though.

Here are relevant quotes from Al in terms of economics.
http://www.viewzone.com/witness.html

aaw: How long have you been doing this?

ep: What d' you mean?

aaw: This job--

ep: Oh. This is what I trained for.

aaw: You trained to do this?

ep: Um-hmm.

aaw: Did--was it like going to school?

ep: I'm a reclamation analyst.

aaw: Say again?

ep: I'm a reclamation analyst. I run the team. I make sure that our quality is up. In other words, we don't want to ship any distorted gasses or anything like that, and we have to make sure all the pressurization is right in each of the tanks, 'cause if it's too high or too low when it goes through compression and ejection from the surface, it might blow up or spin, and you can't have a tank out there floatin' around, it'll bump into somebody or they'll run into it and that'll screw everything up.

aaw: Do kids have jobs to do--

ep: Jobs?

aaw: --responsibilities?

ep: Responsibilities. That's a better word. Sure. The minute you can do, you do. Everybody's got a function. If you don't all function, it won't get done.

aaw: So the minute you can do, you do.

ep: Sure.

aaw: Do you get to choose--

ep: Choose?

aaw: --what your functions will be? Do you get to specialize in something?

ep: Sure. It's whatever you're interested in.

http://www.viewzone.com/witness33.html

aaw: Do you have a personal transportation vehicle?

ep: Personal? What d'you mean?

aaw: Something that you get to say when it leaves and when it doesn't leave--.

ep: You mean, like a possession?

aaw: Yes. Or do you have to shut--

ep: Possession. That doesn't--that doesn't fit no more.

aaw: --do you have to shuttle?

ep: Yeah, you shuttle from the L's.

aaw: Are there regular--?

ep: Yeah, sure. There's shuttles all the time everywhere. But they're not your shuttle. They're just shuttles. What would you want one for?

aaw: Well, what if you wanted to zip around the moon, to visit some places?

ep: Then I'd go tell Mark. I'd say, \"Hey, man, I want to go for a ride. You got one open?\" And he'd say yeah or no.

aaw: Do you have money?

ep: Nah. What for?

aaw: What about, is there any, does anyone try to mine precious jewels, or--?

ep: What's a precious jewel?

aaw: --diamonds? Gold? Minerals?

ep: Oh, I see. Like the doo-dads. I guess so. I don't think you got it quite right up here. That stuff don't matter. There's no wanting, so if you have everything you want, what do you want extra stuff for? Oh--I guess that's not fair, 'cause I covet my books.

aaw: I was going to ask you about those books. Yes, you--.

ep: Y'see, that's--I don't use my books like a profit lever.

aaw: Like a what?

ep: Like a profit lever. I'm not--they're just a thing that brings me pleasure. What's wrong with that?

aaw: So would you say that in your society everybody's pretty well considered equal?

ep: Sure. We all take turns.

aaw: What about--

ep: I'll be on the council again in a couple of years.

aaw: On the what, the council?

ep: Um-hmm.

ep: I just thought of something.

aaw: Okay.

ep: We use personal time like you were talking about money.

aaw: How's that?

ep: I can trade my P-time to somebody, or they can trade it to me. And we do that sometimes. So I might work longer, and then take longer, 'specially during an asteroid or meteor shower. I really like those. I like to get a little time off and go watch 'em. Y'see, that's all real easy. That's all real, uh--everybody understands or something. Eddie, he likes to go watch the solar flares. So sometimes when we know there's a big flare coming, I'll just work a couple extra days and let him take some of my P-time. Then he'll go up to the observatory and watch for a couple o' days, 'cause he really digs that.

aaw: Who's Eddie?

ep: Eddie's one o' the guys that work for me.

aaw: How old do you get to be in this life?

ep: About a hundred and fiftyish or so. Depends on how many rads you take.

aaw: A hundred and fifty years?

ep: Um-hmm.

aaw: But you don't have to work all those years.

ep: Why wouldn't you?

aaw: I mean, at something like driving a--.

ep: Have to? I don't understand have to--.

aaw: Oh well, okay.

ep: Why wouldn't you? It's what you do, you're--don't you stay interested in things?

aaw: Okay. How long would you work at what you're doing?

ep: Till I got bored with it.

aaw: And then?

ep: I would go do something else. Whatever I could do, whatever I wanted to do.

aaw: Do they have constant training programs? If you wanted to go do something that you hadn't done before--?

ep: Well, Eddie--eventually he's gonna want to go up and be in the observatory all the time, so pretty soon, maybe another five, ten years, he'll quit diggin' and he'll go be in the observatory. And he'll do that until he gets sick of it and moves on to somethin' else.